[Lord Molyb]

---

Playing 2/1, no agreement on what 4♥ means


Also it's a 0-750 MP game so not a great field.

[MrAce]

Having no agreement; I would think

2♥ would be f1 9+

3♥would be weak long hearts

4♥ would be splinter.

OR, if we have a rule that says in competition only opponent suit(s) are splinter (a lot of people have this) and /or if we do not use splinters, then 4♥ can be used to play. (or with agreement 3-4 ♥ bids can be used as fit + natural, one of them being invitational other one being gf )

I have also seen people who starts with double and then bids hearts to indicate that they have a hand with long hearts but they do not have enough beans to start with 2♥ previously.

[ggwhiz]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-07, 20:16, said:

I have also seen people who starts with double and then bids hearts to indicate that they have a hand with long hearts but they do not have enough beans to start with 2♥ previously.

Me too as well as a few that read the Title from Bergen, support (clubs) with support and stopped reading. I'm bidding 4♥. Giving splinters to this crowd is like giving tasers to Mall cops.

[the hog]

 Lord Molyb, on 2014-April-07, 19:44, said:

---

Playing 2/1, no agreement on what 4♥ means


Also it's a 0-750 MP game so not a great field.

I would regard
2H as a 1rf
3H as a splinter
4H to play, similar to the hand shown.

[steve2005]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-07, 20:16, said:

I have also seen people who starts with double and then bids hearts to indicate that they have a hand with long hearts but they do not have enough beans to start with 2♥ previously.

now opps bid 4♣, can you now bid 4♥ without partner getting too excited?!

[silvr bull]

 the hog, on 2014-April-07, 20:51, said:

I would regard
2H as a 1rf
3H as a splinter
4H to play, similar to the hand shown.

This works for me too. I have a KISS rule that if a suit bid is forcing (2♥ in this case), then a jump by a single level in that suit (3♥ here) is a splinter, so 4♥ to play would be my bid.

[MrAce]

 silvr bull, on 2014-April-07, 22:40, said:

This works for me too. I have a KISS rule that if a suit bid is forcing (2♥ in this case), then a jump by a single level in that suit (3♥ here) is a splinter, so 4♥ to play would be my bid.

Unfortunately if your pd read the definition of splinter, you and he will be in totally different pages.

Now i understand if you agreed to play like this, but OP stated that there were no agreements.

You can check the definition of splinter bids and how to separate them from natural jumps on the net. It is easy, splinter is double jump unless you agreed otherwise.This is also practical, you do not confuse them with strong jump shifts or weak jump shifts or for other meanings that you may want to play a jump shift for, Double jump is an unusual jump.

Now having said that, this does not apply for the opener, for example;

1♦--1♠
3♥

Since 2♥ would be a reverse and the reverse bids are not limit bids, 3♥ here is an unusual bid. You can play this as mini splinter and 4♥ as full splinter or you may play 3♥ as splinter and 4♥ as whatever you want.

Imho playing 3♥ in the OP as a splinter is bad idea. First of all you should not build a system where the priority goes to a hand which may wanna respond a natural 4M bid. There are a lot of other things that you will want to spare this bid for. If you have natural long major suit, there are plenty of other ways to bid it, when it comes. You can use it for strong suit purposes, which sets the trumps, or you can play it for weak long suits, or you can play it for fit jump purposes. You can still keep the 4♥ bid to play if you do not feel comfortable without it and give away the splinter. Because it is also rare to have a splinter bid in another suit when they overcall.


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Splinter_bid


http://www.larryco.c...x?articleID=235

http://www.betterbri...ndard200411.pdf

http://www.mrbridge....rary/Slam_3.pdf

and the list goes on. In some of them after 1♠ is opened and they overcalled it is mentioned that 4♥ is the splinter, not 3

[Fluffy]

4♥ is obvious, partner is allowed to look at his hand before deciding what it means.

[P_Marlowe]

what is wrong with 2H, whatever the meaning is.

I have enough hears to repeat them until I can play them.

We play 4H as fit jumps, if they have bid a suit, splinter exist
only in their suit, but obviously, we have discussed this topic.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Quote

now opps bid 4♣, can you now bid 4♥ without partner getting too excited?!

I don't think partner will be too excited since I didn't bid 2♥ but he might take me as having a more flexible hand. Therefore I prefer 2♥ to double although that might make him too excited.

Therefore I think 4♥ is right. I really don't like not being able to show this hand in one bid, lest opps raise to the five-level before I make my first descriptive bid. But here at least I have enough clubs that it is not so likely to happen. Maybe LHO will bid 5♦ and his partner will take it as exclusion?

[gwnn]

No way is an undiscussed 4h here a splinter. Shame on you Timo for suggesting it! I believe JLOGIC once posted that even in an uncontested auction he'd take 4h as natural, not sure about that. I would just avoid bidding it. But this really needs to be natural IMO.

[the_clown]

For me 2♥ would be natural F1
3♥ - long hearts too weak for 2/1 forcing response
4♥ to play.

[nige1]

 Lord Molyb, on 2014-April-07, 19:44, said:

Playing 2/1, no agreement on what 4♥ means
Also it's a 0-750 MP game so not a great field.

---

IMO Double = 10, 2♥ = 9, 4♥ = 6, 3♥ = 5.
I agree with Mr Ace that 4♥ is often a splinter but why risk a misunderstanding? Similarly, If you bid 2♥ or 3♥ you may find yourself playing at the six-level. Double, followed by minimal ♥ bids should get the message across, eventually. Your broken record should not excite partner too much. If you're passed out short of game, you might belong in a part-score.

[MrAce]

 gwnn, on 2014-April-08, 02:50, said:

No way is an undiscussed 4h here a splinter. Shame on you Timo for suggesting it! I believe JLOGIC once posted that even in an uncontested auction he'd take 4h as natural, not sure about that. I would just avoid bidding it. But this really needs to be natural IMO.

I did not suggest it, almost each and every single source that i checked suggests it. Can you show me 1 single source where 1♠ -2m-3♥ is a splinter ? I am not against playing 4♥ natural here. I just don't like the idea to play 4♥ natural AND 3♥ as splinter together.

Here is one from "What is Standard" i found on the web. Check the bottom right corner of the first page

http://www.betterbri...dard200411.pdf.

I already posted other links where it clearly says splinter is double jump. I did not mean to say this is the best usage of it, neither i said you have to play splinters in another suit when they overcalled

When you play 4♥ natural, which is perfectly fine for me, then you have to either give up on splinter OR give up on natural weak 3♥ (which comes more frequent than natural 4♥ btw) - fit jumps - strong jump shift options. You can't play em all.

I mean look at the OP hand, everyone is bidding 4♥ at MP, because i believe somehow they disabled themselves from bidding 3♥ which is plenty at MP if pd is not raising imo. I am sure there would be 3♥ bidders if that was an option. But this one is close due to 8th ♥. Make it 7 hearts and those who plays 3♥ as splinter are disabled to bid anything reasonable.

[wank]

1) many people play jumps to game in competition as always to play
2) many people play that the only suit you can splinter in after an overcall is the opps'.

having said that, i don't want to bid 4h.

partner has an opening bid
we've got 3 cards in rho's suit
we have the higher ranking suits
they very possibly have no great fit and it's our hand in partscore.

i would content myself with a double and bidding hearts for the time being.

[gwnn]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-08, 05:04, said:

I did not suggest it, almost each and every single source that i checked suggests it. Can you show me 1 single source where 1♠ -2m-3♥ is a splinter ? I am not against playing 4♥ natural here. I just don't like the idea to play 4♥ natural AND 3♥ as splinter.

Here is one from "What is Standard" i found on the web. Check the bottom right corner of the first page

http://www.betterbri...dard200411.pdf.

I already posted other links where it clearly says splinter is double jump. I did not mean to say this is the best usage of it, neither i said you have to play splinters in another suit when they overcalled

When you play 4♥ natural, which is perfectly fine for me, then you have to either give up on splinter OR give up on natural weak 3♥ (which comes more frequent than natural 4♥ btw) - fit jumps - strong jump shift options. You can't play em all.

I mean look at the OP hand, everyone is bidding 4♥ at MP, because i believe somehow they disabled themselves from bidding 3♥ which is plenty at MP if pd is not raising imo. I am sure there would be 3♥ bidders if that was an option. But this one is close due to 8th ♥. Make it 7 hearts and those who plays 3♥ as splinter are disabled to bid anything reasonable.

No, I also don't like 3H as a splinter. I just replied to your first post. I think the 3H splinter people were not saying that they would take it as a splinter if undiscussed, just that they prefer it to be one.

Without discussion, I would take the heart bids as:

2H: inv+ with hearts, forcing
3H: weak
4H: weak

With a good hand with fit and heart shortness you can just bid 3C.

On the given hand I would content myself to 3H, although 4H is OK. I would bid 4H if I thought there was a chance that partner takes it as a fit jump.

[MrAce]

Without discussion i would take 4♥ bid as whatever is

1♠-4♥ in my system.

If this is natural, then my 4 ♥ now is also natural, if this is splinter then now it is also splinter, without agreement. Maybe my common sense makes no sense to you and you may be right, who knows

NOTE: Though I have to confess i have an agreement and they are not same after they overcall

[Stephen Tu]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-08, 05:21, said:

If this is natural, then my 4 ♥ now is also natural, if this is splinter then now it is also splinter, without agreement. Maybe my common sense makes no sense to you and you may be right, who knows

I think undiscussed for most people except for jumping in opp suit, splinters are off. At least that is what my books say (Modern Bridge Conventions by Root/Pavlicek, Washington Standard by Robinson, plus others I remember.but didn't just check right now. And I can't remember any saying that they are on by default.). So I would not make this "now it is also splinter" assumption without agreement.

Edit: looking closer Washington Standard plays jumps to game as natural, jump to 4 of other minor as still splinter. Weird. But then again this is specific system not a "standard Standard".

[CSGibson]

I don't think 4♥ has a standard meaning, and I would never bid it in this auction without an agreement as to what it was. My default agreement is that it is a fit jump, but I have also played splinter. I have never played it as "to play", but I don't think its ridiculous, just not my own personal preference.

[Lord Molyb]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-08, 05:04, said:

I did not suggest it, almost each and every single source that i checked suggests it. Can you show me 1 single source where 1♠ -2m-3♥ is a splinter ? I am not against playing 4♥ natural here. I just don't like the idea to play 4♥ natural AND 3♥ as splinter together.

Here is one from "What is Standard" i found on the web. Check the bottom right corner of the first page

http://www.betterbri...dard200411.pdf.

I already posted other links where it clearly says splinter is double jump. I did not mean to say this is the best usage of it, neither i said you have to play splinters in another suit when they overcalled

When you play 4♥ natural, which is perfectly fine for me, then you have to either give up on splinter OR give up on natural weak 3♥ (which comes more frequent than natural 4♥ btw) - fit jumps - strong jump shift options. You can't play em all.

I mean look at the OP hand, everyone is bidding 4♥ at MP, because i believe somehow they disabled themselves from bidding 3♥ which is plenty at MP if pd is not raising imo. I am sure there would be 3♥ bidders if that was an option. But this one is close due to 8th ♥. Make it 7 hearts and those who plays 3♥ as splinter are disabled to bid anything reasonable.

Everyone except for one beginner bid 2♥. The beginner bid 3♥, which I agree with.
Opener had ♠AKxxxx ♥x ♦AQT9x ♣K, 9 tricks are made in both majors.