[wizards]

Playing Natural Style 2/1, Convenient Minor
Knock out team match 1st session.

Vul vs NV

Holding
♠J83
♥QT984
♦K5
♣K94


You LHO Partner RHO
P P 1♣ P
1♥ P 2♥

Bids available:
2S = Short suit asking
2N = Spade Help suit try
3C/3D = Help suit try
3H = Blocking

[Bbradley62]

I pass, but wouldn't object if partner bid 3♥ instead.

[manudude03]

I voted 2S, but meant 2NT as a help suit game try in spades. You haven't mentioned this, but can partner have only 3 hearts here? If it promises 4, I think I'm blasting 4H.

[Zelandakh]

Hello wizards and welcome to the BBF forums. There are some different styles for the 2♥ rebid depending on agreements. In some places it guarantess 4 card support, in others can be only 3. Regardless though, it generally shows a max of about 15 including distributional values. We have a bad 9 count with a doubleton diamond, so close to inviting but just falling a little short, particularly if the raise can be 3 card support, which is true for most of the posters here.

[broze]

I'm quite surprised by the number of passers. Isn't this IMPs? Aren't we vulnerable? We only need to get to a 38% game don't we? What about Qxx AJx x AQxxxx etc.?

Some move is called for imo - I will go for 2N as it is defined in the OP.

Although I would like more info. If opener has 4H for sure I will try 4H now, if he can be balanced with 3 I will pass....

[MrAce]

broze, on 2014-January-20, 08:37, said:

I'm quite surprised by the number of passers. Isn't this IMPs? Aren't we vulnerable? We only need to get to a 38% game don't we? What about Qxx AJx x AQxxxx etc.?

Some move is called for imo - I will go for 2N as it is defined in the OP.

Although I would like more info. If opener has 4H for sure I will try 4H now, if he can be balanced with 3 I will pass....

You have 9 count and only thing that looks positive to me is the spot cards.

-Decent spots
-Bad shape
-Bad values
-Values located in short suits.

Tbh i do not mind making game try with this, but as i voted i would pass.

I would rather play 3 NT than 3♥ in that type of hands at IMPs when pd holds 3 card ♥

[mikeh]

Fairly easy pass for me.

I have no Aces, tho the 2 kings are nice. Partner will be limited to 14, since he didn't open 1N and would not raise to 2♥ with an unbalanced 15: with 3 card support, he'd have another option, and with 4 card support, he'd jump to 3♥.

While I see we are red at imps, it is wrong to base one's decision solely on the idea that we need to bid 40% games. Firstly, that figure (or 38%) depends on two assumptions about the game contract: we are never going down more than one, and we are never going down doubled. Now, with 5 hearts, the odds of being doubled aren't high, but I often see this 40% figure mentioned, and it is incorrect in principle.

As for this situation, the 40% is even less relevant, since it ignores a very real issue, which is that on a bad day even 3♥ will fail..so that if we invite and partner rejects, we may have booted 5 imps for no possible gain.

I am not saying that I expect 3♥ to fail even most of the time he rejects, but I am saying it isn't a trivial issue when our hand is so flat and soft.

I suspect that on the actual hand, bidding worked out, but that doesn't impress me much if true. I'd expect game to make close to 50% of the time he'd accept (and a small percentage of the time he rejects), and he'd accept maybe 50% of the time, so I'd expect (a pure guess) that we can make game about 25% of the time. Maybe even 30% of the time.

I think the only way to really see if this hand is worth an invite is to do a simulation, but we'd have arguments about the constraints and partner's actions....and about the lead and the defence, since double dummy results are misleading. It's the sort of thing a partnership can simulate, since they can discuss and agree on these issues, but for the forum it would be a waste of effort. We all know that 'sometimes' inviting will work and the margin of disagreement over these issues would render any attempt to say 'game makes 'x' % of the time' meaningless.

[broze]

mikeh, on 2014-January-20, 10:16, said:

Partner will be limited to 14, since he didn't open 1N and would not raise to 2♥ with an unbalanced 15

Aren't there some 1=3=4=5 15/16 counts not good enough to reverse and so forced to bid 2H? Or will you shade a reverse with that shape?

(P.S. you make some good points about the 40% figure. Then again I'd much prefer to bring 3H-1 to my teammates than a vulnerable 2H+2)

[mikeh]

broze, on 2014-January-20, 10:24, said:

Aren't there some 1=3=4=5 15/16 counts not good enough to reverse and so forced to bid 2H? Or will you shade a reverse with that shape?

(P.S. you make some good points about the 40% figure. Then again I'd much prefer to bring 3H-1 to my teammates than a vulnerable 2H+2)

1. Possibly, but most players upgrade these hands, certainly good 16 counts and many would do this with good 15 counts, when holding that exact shape. Not only is that so, but also the shape is unlikely, and rendered at least slightly less likely by the silence of the white v red opps with 9 spades and a smattering of hcp.

2. My experience suggests that some of our 2♥ + 2 results are due to the opps either trying to beat 2♥ or taking their eye off the ball once they realize they are going minus. IOW, it is often the case, when we have good teammates, that we are +170 and they are +100, or we are +140 and they +100 defending 3♥.

3. I frankly don't give (much of) a damn about coming back to my teammate having missed a bad game. Trying to bid every game that happens to make is losing bridge and my teammates are always good enough to understand that good bridge sometimes loses short term. I wouldn't want to play on a team of result merchants, and only a result merchant would criticize a teammate for missing a, say, 20% game contract. Or for passing this hand even if partner's hand happened to make 4♥ worth bidding.

[aguahombre]

In our partnership, if she has raised on only 3, they have either 9 spades or 10 diamonds. I will block with 3♥. I see my minority of one here, but am sticking to it. The Spade Jack is not enough of a subtractor from the Law to disuade me.

[kuhchung]

Surprised by the bidders. I regularly pass flat 10 counts here.

[mike777]

as posters say pass easy.

[mr1303]

I think you can only invite game if you don't open a lot of 12 counts.

Since that REALLY isn't my style, I pass and hope to make +110...

[WGF_Flame]

deleted

This post has been edited by WGF_Flame: 2014-January-21, 03:05

[P_Marlowe]

If game makes, partner should have done more than what he did, the single raise
simply showed 6-10, and may have been blocking.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[wizards]

Thank you guys, sorry that I am new to this forum and seems I miss one-two pieces of information.

1. We are text- book style open bidder, which means we may or may not open on AAK 4432, but won't open in AAK 4333
2. 2H confirm 4 cards support.

And teammate are fairly reasonable, no pressure indeed,
So, just do what you think right is ok.

[aguahombre]

wizards, on 2014-January-21, 04:46, said:

And teammate are fairly reasonable, no pressure indeed,

I know you meant that they are understanding and don't create tension when things go wrong. That is a good thing.

I can't imagine your reasonable teammates or your opponents would let the auction die in 2♥ when your side has shown a fit and subsided there. Larry Cohen would have a hernia if this happened. If I passed 2H, intending to walk the dog into 3H later when they compete, I would expect to bring back minus 140 vs plus 140 for minus 7 IMPs some of the time...and break even the rest of the time. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on 2014-January-21, 11:02, said:

I know you meant that they are understanding and don't create tension when things go wrong. That is a good thing.

I can't imagine your reasonable teammates or your opponents would let the auction die in 2♥ when your side has shown a fit and subsided there. Larry Cohen would have a hernia if this happened. If I passed 2H, intending to walk the dog into 3H later when they compete, I would expect to bring back minus 140 vs plus 140 for minus 7 IMPs some of the time...and break even the rest of the time. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

This isn't mps and neither partner has denied 4 spades: indeed, on this auction, NS could have a 4-4 spade fit. Moreover, neither opp has made a 1 level call at favourable. So I would be surprised to see the opps balance now: not astounded, mind you, but definitely surprised.

[ggwhiz]

aguahombre, on 2014-January-20, 12:53, said:

In our partnership, if she has raised on only 3, they have either 9 spades or 10 diamonds. I will block with 3♥. I see my minority of one here, but am sticking to it. The Spade Jack is not enough of a subtractor from the Law to disuade me.

I see a lot of merit here on general principles but will sound tough on the way to 3♥ with a 2nt (spade) help suit try.

The opponents silence (so far) on these colors is encouraging for offence, I haven't committed to game yet and my wife will balance with 3♠ against your 3♥ bid with 1/2 an excuse. Letting her balance cheaply is not a good idea.

Balancing after the game try is problematic for them but I definitely agree that passing is asking for trouble should your rho have passed 1♣ with length and a decent hand and your lho is in any way aggressive in pass out seat with shape. If I catch my partner on go, I'll eat my 4♥ -1 losses and celebrate the occasional just in.

[the_clown]

I would pass in tempo for the reasons others suggested.

I am not a fan of these romex game tries. I have the feeling good ops can use the additional information very well to find the wright lead/defence. And when we happily write +140 in 3M= we are probaly -620 at the other table when they blasted and teammates failed to make the correct lead/defence with the limited information.