[humilities]

This is a very tough one for me ... I'd like a discussion on what North should do with 5-5 vs 6-5 hands, and how South should take preferences.

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How likely is it that partner is 6-5+ in the reds on this auction? Or do all (most?) 6-5 hands rebid 4H?

[mike777]

strongly prefer 4d rather than 3s lets support pards suit and set trumps and simplify the auction.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2014-January-18, 09:55, said:

strongly prefer 4d rather than 3s lets support pards suit and set trumps and simplify the auction.

Although I understand what you say, it doesn't seem to answer any of the OP's questions. I think we need to pretend Responder has a hand which should have rebid 3♠ and try to answer the issues posed. However, if Opener might have manufactured the 3♦ jump shift, we could regret not showing our own good suit like OP did ---and your choice of 4♦ instead of 3S would not have simplified anything.

IMO, opener rebidding 4H would clarify holding a lot of cards in the suit but would muddy whether 3D was even a real suit at all. As responder, we are stuck with a 5 ♦ preference on an auction like this whether we are 2-3 or 2-4 in the reds and must leave the matter of Opener possibly holding 6-5 unresolved.

[humilities]

Thanks for the feedback all. My first incliniation was to bid 5D too -- but I an reconsidering... (perhaps resulting )

It seems most agree that there a moderate chance pertner is 6-5+ in the reds. That means by bidding 5D, you are betting that:
(A) there are more hands that have 4 losers in Hearts and only 2 in Diamonds
vs
(B) there are fewer hands that have 3 losers in either red suit

It seems to me (B) might be greater - that is - more hands with 3 losers in either suit than 4+ losers in hearts but still only 2 in Diamonds. If your intention is to make game (this is Vul at Imps) then 4H seems like the safer bet...

Thoughts?

mike777, on 2014-January-18, 09:55, said:

strongly prefer 4d rather than 3s lets support pards suit and set trumps and simplify the auction.

Our partnership hasn't discussed this approach as we will JS with 3541 or even some 2542 (or even god forbid 3631) hands - and I'm not sure it's clear that a follow-up 4S bid by opener would be to play - at least as far as our current understanding goes...

[aguahombre]

humilities, on 2014-January-24, 10:35, said:

It seems most agree that there a moderate chance pertner is 6-5+ in the reds. That means by bidding 5D, you are betting that:
(A) there are more hands that have 4 losers in Hearts and only 2 in Diamonds
vs
(B) there are fewer hands that have 3 losers in either red suit

It seems to me (B) might be greater - that is - more hands with 3 losers in either suit than 4+ losers in hearts but still only 2 in Diamonds. If your intention is to make game (this is Vul at Imps) then 4H seems like the safer bet...

Thoughts?



Our partnership .........will JS with 3541 or even some 2542 (or even god forbid 3631) hands - and I'm not sure it's clear that a follow-up 4S bid by opener would be to play - at least as far as our current understanding goes...

I was not saying that the 6-2 heart fit might not score better. It might. But, we can't really find out about Opener's 6th heart if he has 6-5 instead of 5-5; we do know now that we have a nine-card Diamond fit. We have shown our good Spade length, and if Slam is afoot, it seems Diamonds will be better as trumps...hearts and Spades being nice side sources of tricks.

On your final point, the 3-6-3-1, 3-5-4-1, or 2-5-4-2 possibility has gone away when Opener rebid 4♦. If he did have one of those, he certainly would have shown the spade support via raise or 4C (whatever that might mean).

[humilities]

aguahombre, on 2014-January-24, 10:58, said:

I was not saying that the 6-2 heart fit might not score better. It might.

I'm not concerned about 'scoring better' - as I mentioned this is a vul game at IMPs - I want to make game, and I'm questioning the 'automatic' raise to 5D. It seems like there might be more hands that have three losers in either red suit, than hands that make 5D but not 4H.

aguahombre, on 2014-January-24, 10:58, said:

if Slam is afoot, it seems Diamonds will be better as trumps...hearts and Spades being nice side sources of tricks.

Clearly if slam is afoot D will be better, but right now I'm concerned about the right game. Partner has very few black cards and even my singleton club may be duplicated. I don't think I'm good enough to be worried about slam over the right game.

aguahombre, on 2014-January-24, 10:58, said:

On your final point, the 3-6-3-1, 3-5-4-1, or 2-5-4-2 possibility has gone away when Opener rebid 4♦. If he did have one of those, he certainly would have shown the spade support via raise or 4C (whatever that might mean).

That comment was in response to Mike, who advocated raising to 4D over 3D on the previous round (rather than rebidding 3S). it is moot now.

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Winstonm]

humilities, on 2014-January-18, 09:34, said:

This is a very tough one for me ... I'd like a discussion on what North should do with 5-5 vs 6-5 hands, and how South should take preferences.

---

How likely is it that partner is 6-5+ in the reds on this auction? Or do all (most?) 6-5 hands rebid 4H?

My feeling is this: partner is forced to make this jump shift in order to show strength first, not shape, so with many hands he has to somewhat create a bid with 6331 and 64 patterns when he is not all that excited about playing in his second suit.

My strong preference here is to give a false preference to the first suit with 2-card support. This caters to all possibilities, I think. If partner is 63, 64, or 65 he can raise himself to game. If he is 55, he can rebid the second suit.

Therefore, the problem as I see it began with the 3S bid. If it is understood that 3H here can be on 2-card support, then it is also understood that the partnership is simply searching for the best game. With 2551 or 3551, opener can suggest spade support over 3H.

As long as everyone understands that struggle #1 in this auction is to find the best game contract no one should get excited. In fact, I would venture that 4th suit here should be the only slam interest bid that should be used and it should be considered totally artificial.

I can't give exacts, but my experience is that the jump shift will be based on a 6 or 7-card long heart suit or a 5/4 pattern far more often than a 5-5 and the 5-2 heart fit will often be the best fit available.

[JLOGIC]

If I had one bid for my life on this auction over 4D it would certainly be 6D. Since you will often have a slam and have a good bid to try and figure it out (5C), I would not be thinking about preferencing back to hearts to play in hearts.

[jallerton]

Yes, 5♣ sems obvious. Try writing down a few hands for partner. 6♦ will often be making and I'd be check whether partner's hand was worth a jump shift if he goes off in 5♦.

The OP didn't specify the form of scoring. At MP Pairs, it's just possible that 4♥ will work out better when 4♥ and 5♦ both make exactly. But partner knows the form of scoring too. If he holds self-supporting hearts say ♠K ♥AKQJxx ♦AJxxx ♣Q I'd expect him to bid 4♥ over 3♠.