[Vampyr]

 wyman, on 2013-September-20, 09:31, said:

or is this an argument to just GF (2m) with 4S/4m after 1H, and to have 1H-2m-2S not show extras?

I don't play 2/1 GF, but this seems to me a very strange way to bid two 4-card suits.

[nige1]

 PhilG007, on 2013-September-20, 08:56, said:

You will notice the two example hands given are very unbalanced? That could be reflected in the opposing hands All the trumps could be bunched in one opponents hand. Believe me it CAN happen It's happened to me more than once in my time(!) 26 points is a yardstick for a game contract...but that doesn't guarantee it will be bid or made(!)

Another 2d worth:

• Holding a shapely hand doesn't make bad splits in your suits more likely.
• Bidding is a fudge. When holding 26 (or more) HCP, It's hard to stay out of game, even on a misfit, only when right to do so.
• Which sequences are defined as forcing is partly fashion but mostly logic Experts sometimes change their minds but current wisdom is that the OP sequence is GF. Nevertheless, Philg007 and partner are free to dissent and agree otherwise.

[nige1]

Duplicate and the original only stated the obvious

[nige1]

Triplicate Sorry

[awm]

I'd expect the 3S bid to usually show six and a 4S raise to often be based on doubleton. This seems a more common case than the alternatives.

[FrancesHinden]

 wyman, on 2013-September-20, 09:31, said:

Back on topic: Suppose opener cues after 3S1H 1S3H 3S4CIs 4H now by responder is something like: "I have a good raise to 4H but had no minor cuebid over 3H" If opener bids 4S now, is it a cue? to play?---Also, per Mike's comment about 3S taking the load of a number of borderline hands, how should responder show a hand like AKxx Qx Qxx QJxxAKQJ Kx xxxx xxxor is this an argument to just GF (2m) with 4S/4m after 1H, and to have 1H-2m-2S not show extras?

 Vampyr, on 2013-September-20, 10:09, said:

I don't play 2/1 GF, but this seems to me a very strange way to bid two 4-card suits.

Playing 2/1 GF this has a lot of advantages, and is also becoming more and more common.
The benefit is that responder immediately sets up a game force. After, say, 1H-1S-2D responder's lowest game forcing bid is 3C and you've lost a lot of room.
You haven't lost much room if you do have a spade fit because if you started 1H-1S-2S then responder still has to show a game force in some way, and he doesn't know if opener has 3 or 4 spades. At least after 1H-2C-2S- responder can bid 3S to look for a cue bid (or a singleton if you play more complex methods) or can splinter.

Some people take this further.
We respond 2C to 1H on 4333 (and it has been known on a 4342 as well, although that isn't systemic). Yes, we alert 2C and explain this.
We have no systemic way bid a hand with exactly 4 spades and game forcing values in response to 1H other than responding 2m; we have found we don't need it.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 FrancesHinden, on 2013-September-20, 14:41, said:

After, say, 1H-1S-2D responder's lowest game forcing bid is 3C and you've lost a lot of room.

Side Bar:
Because of the "room" problem, Meckwell uses 2S over 2D as GF... and has said is now a "popular treatment" ( I'm not sure about that ).
This was Responder's hand in their example from Dec, 2009 Bridge World:

AKJT98654
--
9
A94

1H 1S
2D 2S = GF

[benlessard]

With AKT??? and similar hands

I would never rebid 2NT with xx in an unbid suit this is really a no-brainer for me. I would never rebid 3H with AKT8xx or worse also a no brainer for me.

With AKT9xx I think 3H is ok but I would still prefer the standard 2C planning to rebid 3H on the 3rd round.

Over 3H I would play 3S as showing H tolerance and be mostly a COG or as H fit slammish. 4m directly is natural while 3S--3nt 4m is H fit & cue bid.

Looking for 3NT vs 4H is more profitable than showing extra lenght in S. Opener responses to 3S can be artificial. 3Nt = willing to play there usually not great H, 4m = cue and 4H can suggest Hx or xxx in spades. Note that over 3Nt responder can return to 4H to suggest H+6S.

[Zelandakh]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-September-20, 17:04, said:

Side Bar:
Because of the "room" problem, Meckwell uses 2S over 2D as GF... and has said is now a "popular treatment" ( I'm not sure about that ).

My suggested "unpopular treatment" is to play 1♥ - 1NT as a GF with spades and 1♥ - 1♠ as a forcing NT response.

[aguahombre]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-September-23, 03:03, said:

My suggested "unpopular treatment" is to play 1♥ - 1NT as a GF with spades and 1♥ - 1♠ as a forcing NT response.

So, with 4 or 5 spades and 6 points, you suggest not showing the suit?

[Zelandakh]

 aguahombre, on 2013-September-23, 05:44, said:

So, with 4 or 5 spades and 6 points, you suggest not showing the suit?

Correct, instead Opener shows the suit with a rebid if they have it (1NT unless playing transfer rebids or something Gazilli-like). In a similar fashion to not showing a 4 card heart suit after a 1♠ opening with 6hcp and this also does not mean we lose the fit.

[helene_t]

Do you play Flannery, Zel?

[Zelandakh]

Never felt the need to yet. My favourite (strong club) system does have specialised rebids for 5M-4oM hands after a relay response though.

I do not knock Flannery as much as most - after all, plenty of very good players use it such as Zia. It feels wrong to me to use such an effective opening as 2♦ for such a limited purpose though. The suggestion does not require Flannery to be effective, any more than a 1♠ opening requires an opening for 5♠4♥ hands. The structures are almost entirely comparable: 1♠ - 1NT; 2♥ = 5♠4♥ and 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT = 5♥4♠. If playing Gazilli, I like a pointy suit switch there so: 1♥ - 1♠; 2♦ = 5♥4♠ and the 1NT rebid handles the Gazilli types centered around diamonds instead of clubs. Everything else can remain exactly the same as with a 1♠ opening.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-September-23, 03:03, said:

My suggested "unpopular treatment" is to play 1♥ - 1NT as a GF with spades and 1♥ - 1♠ as a forcing NT response.

Is it "unpopular" because it is Brown Sticker ?

1H - 1S! :

" ... if a bid is weak (or potentially weak having multiple options) and does not promise 4 cards in a defined suit (when weak) then it is likely to have a brown sticker. "

BTW, I liked the treatment when I first saw it ... but then I was told it was brown sticker .

[FrancesHinden]

No it is not 'Brown Sticker' because 'Brown Sticker' basically only applies to opening bids and overcalls.
In WBF events you can play whatever you like as responder.

(in fact the ACBL is the only jurisdiction I know where you _can't_ do what you like as responder)

I also play 1H - 1S as a forcing NT and 1H - 1NT as 5+ spades, but I don't like restricting the 1NT bid to a game force. It's fine on an uncontested auction, but gets a bit messy when 4th hand bids and you still have no idea you have a 9- (or 10-) card spade fit.