[Kungsgeten]

Saw some topics on the precision 1D opening, so got inspired since I'm currently working on a structure over our Swedish Club 1D opening.

Our 1D opening shows either 5332 with 5 diamonds or 4+ diamonds unbalanced (may have 4-5 or 5-6 minors either way). Do you think it would be better to include the 5332-pattern into our 1C opening (which shows 11-13 balanced or 17+ any)? By doing so it is possible to use the 1NT rebid for other purposes.

The structure's goal is to be pretty simple, but effective. We have considered using 1H, 1NT or 2C as a relay, but right now we're skipping relays in this system (we used to play them when playing Moscito).

  1D---
  1M  4+ major
  1N  Transfer to clubs, weak or GF
    2C  The usual bid, everything except pass is now natural GF
    2D  Good diamond suite, bad clubs
    2N  Solid diamonds, some values in majors
    3C  Max with 4-card support
  2C  Weak or GF diamond raise
    2D  The usual bid. Everything except pass is now natural GF.
    2N  Solid diamonds, some values in majors
    3C  Natural and very good distribution
    3D  Invitational, very good hand
  2D  Invitational 3+ diamond raise
  2H  Reverse Flannery, non-forcing
  2S  Reverse Flannery, invitational
  2N  Mixed raise
  3C  Invitational with 6+ clubs
  3D  Preemptive
  3HS Preemptive
  3N  Suggestion to play

  1D--1H;
  1S  4+ spades
    1N  Non-forcing
    2C  Puppet to 2D, then:
      2X  To play
      2N+ Natural game force
    2X  Natural, about 8--10 hcp
    2N  Invitational
    3X  Natural strong invite
  1N  11--13, semi-natural. Two-way checkback.
  2C  5-4 minors either way
  2D  6+ diamonds. 2S is now GF.
  2H  Natural, may be 3-card support
  2S  Max with 6 diamonds and 3 hearts
    2N  Puppet to 3D, will then place contract
    3C  Showing stopper
    3DH Slam interest
    3S  Showing stopper
  2N  Max with 4 card support
    3C  GF, asking for shortness
    3D  Double fit
    3H  To play
  3C  Max with 5-5
  3D  Max with (6)7+ diamonds
  3H  About 13--14 hcp, 4-card support and an SPL
  3S  Void splinter
  4C  Void spinter
  4D  Great diamonds and 4-card support

  1D--1S;
  1N  Semi-natural or 5D and 4H. Two-way checkback.
  2C  5-4 minors either way
    2D  Preference
    2H  Puppet to 2S, then 2NT+ is GF.
    2S  Natural, about 9--12 hcp
    2N  Invitational
    3CD Invitational
    3H  Invitational with 5-5 majors
    3S  Invitational with good 6+ spades
  2D  Usually 6+ diamonds, but could be five.
    As 2C, so 2H is a puppet etc.
  2H  Max with 6 diamonds and 3 spades
  2S  Natural, may be 3-card support
  2N  Max with 4-card support
  3C  Max with 5-5
  etc, similar to 1D--1H

I had another idea over 1D-1H, but I think it got too complicated:

  1D--1H;
  1S  4+ clubs or 6+ diamonds
    1N  Relay
      2CD Longer suit
        2D  To play
        2H  To play
        2S  GF with support
        2N  GF without support
        3C  INV after 2C, natural GF after 2D
    2C  Preference
      2D  6+ diamonds, not 4 clubs. 3C now to play (canapé)
    2D  Invitational
    2H  Invitational with 6+ hearts
    2S  FSF
    2N  Invitational
    3C  Invitational canapé
    3D  Natural GF
    3H  Natural GF with good suit
  1N  Semi-balanced, 11--13. Two-way checkback.
  2C  3-card raise, unbalanced
    2D  Preference, opener may bid 2H with max
    2H  Preference
    2S  Semi-natural, GF
    2N  Invitational
    3C  Semi-natural, GF
    3DH Invitational
    3S  Splinter
    3N  To play
    4C  Splinter
    4D  Slam interest
    4H  To play
  2D  4 spades
    2HS To play
    2N  Game forcing relay
    3C  To play
    3DHS Invitational
    3N  To play
  2H  Minimum 4-card raise
  2S  Max with 6+ diamonds and 3 hearts
  2N  Maximum 4-card raise
  3C  Max with 5-5 minors
  3D  Max with (6)7+ diamonds
  3H  Good minimum (like 13--14) with SPL and 4-card support
  3S  Void splinter and very good hand
  4C  Void splinter and very good hand
  4D  Long, good diamonds and 4-card support

[mgoetze]

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-September-08, 20:36, said:

Do you think it would be better to include the 5332-pattern into our 1C opening (which shows 11-13 balanced or 17+ any)? By doing so it is possible to use the 1NT rebid for other purposes.

Yes.

Possible uses for 1NT rebid: transfer to clubs, 3-card support or (less relevant when playing Swedish Club but a serious consideration for 2/1) extra strength.

You can find a structure for transfer rebids on my BBF Systems Index.

In theory, though, I think a 1NT response as GF relay and everything else as nat NF is probably best.

[Kungsgeten]

A concern has been if its really worth it to make 1D always unbalanced (by excluding 5332). Gains and losses? From what I can see:

- When opening 1D, showing 4+ (usually 5+), responder can support diamonds (good in a contested auction). Opener is also limited.
- If opening 1C, which is 11-13 balanced or strong, responder can not support diamonds (since they haven't been shown).
- Opening 1C with 5D332, partner knows that you hold 2+ support for his suit (or a strong hand). This may be good in competition too.
- Excluding 5D332 from 1D makes the 1D-1M auction better, but I don't know how much better.

[Zelandakh]

I went with the unbalanced diamond for my (weak NT) system and have not regretted it. Within a Swedish Club framework it is probably even better. You can use the extra rebid after the 1♦ opening either to distinguish those annoying 4♦5♣ hands from 5♦4♣ or to get a better relay structure in without giving up on the usual LOTTy stuff on weak hands.

[RSClyde]

I'm a big advocate of the unbalanced diamond.
I'm of the philosophy that delineating minor suit distribution on balanced hands is less important than isolating general hand type early.
My response structure is simple.

Rebidding 1nt over a major shows a 3-suiter with shortness in the major and roughly weak no trump playing strength (not bypassing 4 spades obviously).
Raising to 2 of a major is mandatory with a minimum even on 3cs (except if you have long strong diamonds).

1nt response is limited and denies a 4cM. Opener must remove with major suit shortness even to a 3 card club suit (it's fine they have a 9 card fit). A 2♥ reverse is artificial and can be used to show some invitational hands.

2♣ response is Golady and used for game forces with and without 4 card majors. Responses are transfers.

2♦ agrees diamonds setting a GF. Systematic responses.

2♥ is a limit raise in diamonds.

2♠ is a constructive diamond raise.

2nt is natural/invitational.

3♣: I'd rather play 3♣ than 1nt opposite your expected singleton.

3♦: Weak raise.

3M: splinter.

The extra inferences of having opened 1♦ are huge in a competitive auction. I can't believe everyone doesn't play this.

[Kungsgeten]

The structure you propose RSClyde works even if the 1D opening can include 5D332 right? Perhaps the Golady doesn't (I do not know what that is, but it sounds like some kind of relay). If one wants to play relays over a 1D opening, excluding 5332 makes it a bit cleaner, but not much. I actually made a 2C GF relay structure over 1D, but we decided to not play relays in this system (even though some sequences use them). I mean 1D-1M; 1NT can be made on 5D332 with 2-cards in the major. The benifit of 1D being truly unbalanced would be to get 1NT as an artificial bid.

The most problematic hand over a minor opening (in my opinion) is 1m-1M; when you cant afford to reverse. Now you have to rebid 1NT or a 5 card minor (or support with 3 cards). Rebidding 1NT often makes responder think you have 2-card support, and also that you're weak. You could however hold a better hand than a minimum NT. Over the 1D opening, this problem only occurs after 1D-1S, what to do with 4 hearts? Now excluding 5D332 (we do not open 4D332 or 4D432 with 1D) we could bid 1NT showing hearts (or perhaps some other bid below 2H) without losing anything. Over 1D-1H; there's almost too many options

A halfway solution would be to only open 5D332 with 1D when holding 3 spades, and support with 3-cards. Then 1NT could show hearts after 1H-1S.

[Zelandakh]

Another solution:-

1♦
==
1♥ = INV+ relay
... - 1♠ = min, 0-3 spades or 4441/4450 (now 1NT is a GF relay and others are natural and invitational)
... - 1NT = 4+ spades, 0-3 hearts (now 2♣ is a GF relay and others are natural and invitational)
... - 2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♦ = max, one-suited, GF
... - 2♥ = max, 4 hearts, GF
... - 2♠ = max, 5♦332, GF
... - 2NT = max, 4441, GF
... - 3♣+ = max, 4450, GF
1♠ = weak, natural, NF (now 1NT shows hearts)
1NT = weak, 4+ hearts, denies spades, NF
2♣ = weak, 5+ clubs, denies a major, NF

There is plenty of space for relays over a 1♦ opening so you can even include additional hands here if desired. Naturally, the more hands you include the worse your 1♦ sequences become and the better the sequences for the other openings. The above copes with all 5♦332 hands in range being opened 1♦, which is probably not what you had in mind.

Honestly though, for something simple just go with an unbalanced diamond and natural responses. Then use Opener's 1NT rebid to show clubs at least as long as diamonds and a 2♣ rebid to show longer diamonds. Simple and effective. Whether you use the 2♣ response for GF hands or as INV+ is not so important providing you handle the INV hands in a sensible way when playing 2/1. Just a preference really; this decision is not going to make or break the system.

[Kungsgeten]

Over 1D-1H; I've been thinking that the 1S rebid could show 4+ clubs, and then 1NT could ask for the longer suit. So over 1D-1H; there's a lot of options with a transfer-like structure.

Over 1D-1S; there's less room since you only have three bids not passing 2D. I've been thinking of 1NT showing 6+ diamonds, 2C being natural (possibly canapé) and 2D showing hearts. Then 2H could be some sort of raise. 1D-1S; 1NT could also include support, but with 6 diamonds on the side (like 6-3 or something like that, will support if partner makes a preference).
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In both cases though, just like you say Zel, I think natural respones would work fine.

What do you think of using 1D-1NT; and 1D-2C; as transfers as proposed in the original post?

1D--
1NT = Transfer to clubs, weak or GF
2C = Transfer raise, weak or GF
2D = Invitational 3+ raise
2N = Mixed raise
3C = Invitaitonal with clubs
3D = Preempt

If 1D can include 5D332 I think it is a good idea to play Reverse Flannery. If it can't, then I do not what 1D-2M should be. Probably weak, or perhaps using one of them as the mixed raise so that 1D-2NT could be natural. Another (serious) option is strong jump shifts.

Opener usually accepts the transfer, and responder can then bid on with a GF. The most problematic hand would be 3-3-2-5, which would probably like to make a natural 1NT bid. It could transfer to clubs, or perhaps pass (risking to play a 4-2 fit when we might have a 5-5 club fit). This hand is also problematic when holding invitaitonal values (if we were to use 1D-2NT as a mixed raise), since 1D-3C; should promise a 6+ suit.

[rhm]

 RSClyde, on 2013-September-10, 13:38, said:

The extra inferences of having opened 1♦ are huge in a competitive auction. I can't believe everyone doesn't play this.

Such claims would be much more convincing if you would underpin your claim with some intriguing examples from top level play.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-September-11, 03:23, said:

What do you think of using 1D-1NT; and 1D-2C; as transfers as proposed in the original post?

I remain to be convinced. It seems like we are getting the worst of both worlds. I think we could improve this immediately by making 1♦ - 2♣ a natural invite and moving the good diamond raises elsewhere. But I am not sure what we are really gaining over the two more standard schemes.

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-September-11, 03:23, said:

If 1D can include 5D332 I think it is a good idea to play Reverse Flannery. If it can't, then I do not what 1D-2M should be. Probably weak, or perhaps using one of them as the mixed raise so that 1D-2NT could be natural. Another (serious) option is strong jump shifts.

I use the 2M responses as weak jumps of ~3-7hcp. That makes 1M followed by 2M invitational for my range of openings (max 17). You could probably work out similar for your ranges.

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-September-11, 03:23, said:

Opener usually accepts the transfer, and responder can then bid on with a GF. The most problematic hand would be 3-3-2-5, which would probably like to make a natural 1NT bid. It could transfer to clubs, or perhaps pass (risking to play a 4-2 fit when we might have a 5-5 club fit). This hand is also problematic when holding invitaitonal values (if we were to use 1D-2NT as a mixed raise), since 1D-3C; should promise a 6+ suit.

Funnily enough, a weak 3325 is also one of the most awkward hands for my relay method. If Opener has a weak 4441 hand opposite this then we have to play in the 5-1 fit instead of a 4-3 major fit. One possibility for you to avoid your extra issues using transfers is for Opener to bid as if over a weak 2♣ response and therefore to rebid 2♣ less often. Of course, that has its own problems but it is probably worth it over having to respond with an ugly 2NT or a pass.

Finally, I have been developing another responding method based on the skip bid principle that would probably work well for limited openers. Unfortunately I have not had time to fully flesh it out or seriously test it as yet. But the basic idea is:-

1♦
==
1♥ = <4 hearts
1♠ = 4+ hearts, <4 spades
1NT = both majors, weak
2♣ = both majors, INV+

and then using the fact that Responder has denied a suit to create an easy force for the rebid. Feel free to play with this concept if you like the idea.

[benlessard]

1D--1H mostly inv + relay or nat

1S=clubs
1NT= 6D or 5D+4H 12-14
2C= 4S+5D 12-14 or GF
2D 5D+4S 15-17
2H= D+H 15-17

2S and higher D+H GF

The thing im sure is that

1D-1H-1S should show clubs.. dont waste your time on anything else once you will try it it will become obvious.

1D-1H-1S-??

1NT both m pref or 9+
---2C = at least 5C
---2D = D are longer than clubs
---2H = 1444 or 04(54)
---2S 18+ with 5C
---rest is D longer than C 18+

if you want i can send you my system in BBO full disclosure.

[Kungsgeten]

The gain for using transfers would be being able to sign off in 2C, as well as establishing a game force early on. This could also be done with a 4 card major suit, like:

1D-1N; 2C-2M = Natural GF, at least 5-4
1D-1N; 2C-2D = A waiting bid of some sort, perhaps 2+ support

I haven't thought so much of the continuations. The main reason was to be able to sign off and to create a game force at a low level. If fourth hand bids, opener knows responder has clubs/support and is either strong or weak. He should expect responder to be weak, and bid accordingly. If weak, responder can pass/raise and if strong bid something else (double, new suit, NT, cue).

One could also use

1D-2C; 2D-2M = GF, support and a 4 card major

You can also stop at the 2-level when invitational:

1D-2D; pass

If using artificial relays, this would not be necessary ofcourse.


Another topic: A possibility could be to play 1D as unbalanced with 4M and (4)5+m, making both 2m openings be natural (6+ or 5 with 4 cards in the other minor) without a major. This is pretty popular in strong club systems (where the 1D opening also includes balanced hands). Here opener does not guarantee a diamond suit, but we can easily find out and if opponents interfere we should have a pretty good idea of partner's hand. If playing Swedish/Polish club, this could happen:

1D-1M;
1S = ??
1NT = 3-card support
2m = 5+ minor, 4 card other major, 0-2 support
2M = 4-card support

One could also use 1D-1H; as natural or GF relay, with something like:

1D-1H;
1S = 4 spades, 0-2 hearts
1N = 4 spades, 3 hearts
2m = 5+ minor, 4 hearts
2H = Three-suiter with 4 hearts (or perhaps bid 1S first unless short spades)

But now we're back to relays again

[Kungsgeten]

 benlessard, on 2013-September-11, 07:54, said:

if you want i can send you my system in BBO full disclosure.

This structure looks pretty good! Since our 1D opening is limited, the GF options isn't needed but I like it. Yes, I'd very much like to see the FD file please

[RSClyde]

 rhm, on 2013-September-11, 03:45, said:

Such claims would be much more convincing if you would underpin your claim with some intriguing examples from top level play.

Rainer Herrmann

I didn't really intend to convince anyone with nothing more than that. It was more just a personal reaction: "I'm surprised that more people don't play this" vs. "What's wrong with everyone, why aren't they playing this." Major decisions about your system are very hard to think through completely since almost everything involves some losses and gains and can be more or less effective depending of how the user tends to think through hands. I can give you some auctions that it helps with (it's easy enough to imagine the hands):
The way that I play it you must have side suit shortness or 6+ diamonds.

1D P 1S 2H
2S 3H ?
Normally you would have no idea how many hearts partner had if you were looking at 3. However here you know that partner has a singleton, there are plenty of hands on which this will be useful in bidding 3, 4, 6 or whatever.

1D P 1nt 2S
P P ?
This auction has marked partner with side suit shortness (he has to double with a stiff spade). This makes to easy to avoid bidding a six card club suit and /or begin giving partner ruffs.

1D P ?
Are you ever unsure if you should raise diamonds or bid no trump? It certainly helps to know that partner has distribution and that you should perhaps be preempting the opponents.

1D P 1H P
2H
partner has effectively splintered in one of the side suits. This could certainly help bid game/ make tries.


There are hands in which it fails you as well as with anything. You are generally fine with those as long as you can scramble.

[mgoetze]

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-September-11, 03:23, said:

Over 1D-1S; there's less room since you only have three bids not passing 2D. I've been thinking of 1NT showing 6+ diamonds, 2C being natural (possibly canapé) and 2D showing hearts.

Why wouldn't you have 1NT as the bid showing hearts and 2♦ as natural?

Here are some possible rebid schemes:

Scheme 1
1NT clubs
2♣ diamonds
2♦ hearts
2♥ spade raise 1
2♠ spade raise 2

Scheme 2
1NT 3-card support
2♣ clubs
2♦ diamonds (or hearts non-max)
2♥ hearts max
2♠ 4-card support

Scheme 3
1NT hearts
2♣ clubs
2♦ diamonds
2♥ spade raise 1
2♠ spade raise 2

[Kungsgeten]

 mgoetze, on 2013-September-12, 01:44, said:

Why wouldn't you have 1NT as the bid showing hearts and 2♦ as natural?

Well, to have 1NT show hearts was the most obvious solution (like your Scheme 3). I thought that using 1NT as 6+ diamonds would let opener show 6+ diamonds, and then support spades with 3 card support. Perhaps 1D-1S; 1NT-2D; 2S. 2C is also available as a force (but so is 2H, so perhaps it is wasting space). A hand that has shown 4 hearts may ofcourse have 3 card support for spades too, but it should be less common; 4-3-5-1 or 4-3-6-0 compared to 3-2-6-2 or 6331.

After 1D-1S; 2D (showing hearts) responder can pass or make preference with 2H. 2S is natural as well. The question is if 2NT should be forcing or not. Well, perhaps it is too hard to establish a force here (3C is very high). Using scheme 3 you always have a low level forcing bid available. I think Scheme 1 may perhaps be better suited to wide range openings, where opener (playing transfers) will have a chance to bid again.

[benlessard]

the files is there

https://skydrive.liv...34185EF0F89!171

Note that if you play a strong club and have a great system for 1D there is absolutely NO reason to limit 1D to 15 other than psych consideration.

AKxx
x
KQxxx
AQx

Why would I open this a strong C when I can open it 1D showing at least 4D unb ?

[straube]

 benlessard, on 2013-September-12, 09:19, said:

Why would I open this a strong C when I can open it 1D showing at least 4D unb ?

Because arguably it's more important to let your partner know you have additional strength than that you have diamonds.

1D (3C) P P ?

1C* (3C) 3H P 3N