[Yzerman]

I play recently in main lobby with a friend. I normally like to look @ field scores/comparisons and watch bridge movies of already played hands, as many people do, for reasons of perhaps learning something new or keeping a mental ledgar of IMP risk/reward and odds. One hand came up that REALLY irked me, and still does.

K9xx
AJ
KQJxx
Ax

AJxx
Kxxx
Axx
Qxx

This hand we bid to normal 6S contract, IMPs in main area, and my partner take 12 after playing safe in trumps for 4 winners (he was assured 4S, 2S, 5D, 1C - assuming normal distributions). The doubleton queen of spades is under the jack, so safety play in trumps leads 980, while playing for Queen onside (hence risking contract on 4-0 trumps) led to 1010.

So I watch as this hand is played and scores are posted to the hand record. And I am ABSOLUTELY amazed at what I see. The last time I looked, I saw that the hand was played 32 times and here are some facts;

Total times played - 32
Total times played 4S (or 5S) - 2 times
Total times played 6S - 22
Total times played 6N - 1
Total times played 7S - 6
Total times played 7N - 1

That is not the interesting part, THIS IS!

Total times played in 6S/6N scoring 1010/1020 - 22/24
Total times played in 6S/6N scoring 980/990 - 2/24

I find this problem, suit combination, so basic to the game of bridge that if I would assume anyone with a moderate amount of experience, OR knowledge from reading, would know and understand how to play this combination @ imps. Applying the hand above, here is a general statement;

Only 2/24 players have an understanding (a) Suit combinations and ( IMPs.

So as not too sound too pessimistic or critical, I propose a posting where people contribute suit combinations and explain WHAT and WHY the suit combination is played the way it is (how to play @ IMPs, MPs, etc). I have a few that I will post shortly.

Regards,
MAL

[inquiry]

I am not terribly surprized...

Mike, you and ohter readers might want to check out these two recent threads...

Beginners guide to suit combinations started, well, by me

http://forums.bridgebase.com/ind...indpost&p=39655 a single, perhpas still unanswered question

[EricK]

I am not very surprised that many players don't know this combination. After all, only a relatively small proportion of bridge players actually study the game. However, I wonder how often a trump was lead, thus negating the need for a safety play.

Eric

[uday]

Am I missing something?

K9xx
AJxxx

for one loser. Surely you'd cash the A, then, unless someone showed out, you'd cash the K.

So if this suit broke 2-2, how did your partner lose a trick to the Q ?

[Flame]

Your sefty is small to the J right ?
Whats wrong with playing the A of spade ? which will make an overtrick.
In general suit combination and especially safty suit combination are overrated, first because it doesnt matter so much, even here im not sure what the odds for 4-0 with 4 in west hand, and not so sure if you calculate the odds*imp gain/lose you will find you gain that much(my guess since this is a slam you will gain but not that much) Also playing safty usually leads to more risks on other suits, for example if the lead here is diamond, ducking a spade put you in the risk of a diamond ruff.
I find many players focus in one suit instead of the all hand, on some hands usuall book hands this is fine, but on most you just cant seperate a suit play from the all hand play.

[Yzerman]

I reviewed every single play of hand where 1010/1020 was scored and the play was identical in each case, low to King and low towards AJ.

Sorry it was 8 card fit ... i will redo hand (and post link to hand record - although this was many days ago so might take me some time to find).

K9xx -> AJxx for 4 winners = Ace and low to 9 if hand on left of dummy follow, picks up Q10xx in either hand.

[FrancesHinden]

I suggest you re-think your opinion of other people's play.
For one thing, there is a big difference between the play in 6NT and the play in 6S.

Let's start with 6S.

On a club lead I'd also be making an overtrick if spades were 2-2.

With two low spades on lead, some people might have got a spade lead and made 13 tricks quickly.

On a diamond lead you'd look very silly safety-playing spades only to concede a diamond ruff [note to all defenders: lead dummy's first bid suit if you don't want declarer safety-playing trumps]. Without considering the auction, the a priori odds are that a singleton or void diamond on lead is much more likely than 4 trumps in LHO's hand.

So it's only on a heart lead that the safety play looks at all promising. Tell me, do you know what lead those 21 players who made an overtrick received?

As there was only 1 pair in 6NT I'll spare you my analysis, but it also depends heavily on the lead and play to the first trick. Certainly after a club lead, unless it's away from the king, the spades have to be played for no loser.

[FrancesHinden]

Sorry I replied assuming declarer had

AJxxx
Kxx
Ax
Qxx

which has the advantage of being only 13 cards and consistent with your write-up.

Now I can't work out what the actual hand is, but I still bet your tirade is wrong unless you know the opening lead...

[inquiry]

Yzerman, on Jan 4 2005, 02:34 PM, said:

Sorry it was 8 card fit ... i will redo hand (and post link to hand record - although this was many days ago so might take me some time to find).

K9xx -> AJxx for 4 winners = Ace and low to 9 if hand on left of dummy follow, picks up Q10xx in either hand.

Needing four trinck in a suit combination...

K9xx
AJxx

Correct play is king then low to the jack.

Needing 3 tricks, correct play is Ace, then low to the nine (if WEST follows suit).

Better get teh hand so we can see what you mean.

ben

[fred]

Here is one of my favorite:

Void

AQ108765

You can afford to lose 2 tricks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[HeartA]

fred, on Jan 4 2005, 02:42 PM, said:

Here is one of my favorite:

Void

AQ108765

You can afford to lose 2 tricks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Cash Ace first of course. It becomes simple if one of the honors (K, J or 9) drops under Ace. If 3-3, it does not matter how you play.

So let's assume none of the honors appear and the remaining cards are 1-3 distributed (if 0-4, you can do nothing). If all three honors in one hand, you will lose 3 more. Now it becomes clear to play Q at the next round, because it losses only to stiff King while wins against stiff J or 9.

Actually, to play small wins against stiff K or J, and losses against stiff 9. So to play Q or small are equally good.

[fred]

Sorry HeartA, that is not correct.

Fred

[HeartA]

fred, on Jan 4 2005, 03:10 PM, said:

Sorry HeartA, that is not correct.

Fred

Fred,

I added another line before seeing your comments.

[luis]

fred, on Jan 4 2005, 07:42 PM, said:

Here is one of my favorite:

Void

AQ108765

You can afford to lose 2 tricks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Starting with the Ace seems automatic, if you catch the 9, J or K you make 5 tricks out of 7.
If the Ace collects air I don't think there's a difference between playing the Q, T or even the 5 at the next turn. Seems to be a guess since the 5-1 layouts and the 3-3 layouts are not important after the Ace has been played we only have to care about the 4-2 layouts and then guess what card is doubleton the K, T or 9
Against the Kx and J9xx you win playing low or the T
against Jx and K9xx You win playing the Q or low
against 9x and KJxx you win playing the T or the Q

Is this a position to apply the principle of restricted talent? If they may drop the 9 with 9x or think they have to falsecard with J9xx ?

Mmmmmm

[inquiry]

Ace first has to be right. The next card (Queen, Ten or small) all seem about the same odds to me. So luis is probably right. it has to do with significance of not seeing a false card from four to the nine something. Because from a pure mathematicall standpoint the odds seem the same for all three second choices after the ace.

Ben

[Flame]

what a drama , fred get into the thread and we are all waiting...

[luis]

The question is:
*Assuming defenders can't tell what we have in the trump suit*
Is there a position where the 9 from J9xx or K9xx is a mandatory falsecard?

Since some players may drop the 9 from 9x and some others may think the 9 from J9xx is a falsecard I think that the correct card when the 9 doesn't appear is either the Q or low.
So against weak players I rule out 9x if the 9 doesn't appear and so I play low.
Against a strong players if the 9 doesn't appear I rule out J9xx and so I play the Q next.
Is this crazy? :-)

[fred]

You are close to the right answer, but you are confusing yourselves with all this talk about falsecards. Falsecards don't come into play in this one - if the 9 is dropped from any holding then all of declarer's problems are solved.

This is a pure 3-way guess - the only one I know of in bridge.

Each of the 3 possible plays on the 2nd round (Q, 10, low) loses only to one doubleton (Kx, Jx, 9x). Each of these doubletons is equally likely.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

Here is another one I like:

J9876

32

You need 2 tricks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com