[kriegel]

I've seen a lot of people advocating 1M - 2♣ as either clubs or balanced as a part of 2/1, with 1M - 2♦ then being 5+.

I assume that opener rebids normally after 1M - 2♣ with the only catch being responder may have only 2-3 clubs (3=4=4=2 over 1♠, for example). Does opener still raise clubs with 4? Is there a straightforward way to sort out responder's hand types after 1M - 2♣; 3♣? I'm sure a relay would help smooth things out.

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before, but a quick search didn't yield anything particularly fruitful. Thanks in advance.

[straube]

 kriegel, on 2012-October-29, 17:35, said:

I've seen a lot of people advocating 1M - 2♣ as either clubs or balanced as a part of 2/1, with 1M - 2♦ then being 5+.

I assume that opener rebids normally after 1M - 2♣ with the only catch being responder may have only 2-3 clubs (3=4=4=2 over 1♠, for example). Does opener still raise clubs with 4? Is there a straightforward way to sort out responder's hand types after 1M - 2♣; 3♣? I'm sure a relay would help smooth things out.

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before, but a quick search didn't yield anything particularly fruitful. Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't relay playing 2/1 GF because opener's range of strength is too wide. You're better off having a conversation in which you restrict each other not to take up too much space unless you have something important to say.

OTOH, if you want to see how relays might be used in a strong club system, here's an example. We use the following and have decided to lump 5440s into 5431s. There are competing schemes that don't but space is tight....

1S-2C
.....2D-bal, 4+C or 5+D
..........2S-4C
...............3C-higher short
...............3D-5224
...............3H-5314
...............3S-6214
...............3N-6304
...............4C-7204
..........2N-5+C
...............3D-higher short
...............3H-even short
...............3S-5215
...............3N-5305
...............4C-5206
...............4D-6205
..........3C-bal
...............3H-5233
...............3S-5323
...............3N-5332
..........3D-5D, higher short
..........3H-5D, even short
..........3S-5251
..........3N-5350
..........4C-5260
..........4D-6250
.....2H-4+H
..........2N-5+H
..........3C-4H, higher short
..........3D-5422
..........3H-5431
..........3S-6421
..........3N-6430
..........4C-7420
.....2S-4D
..........etc
.....2N-6+S, bal
..........3D-6223
..........3H-6232
..........3S-6322
..........3N-7222
.....3C-6S, higher
.....3D-6S, middle
.....3H-6331
.....3S-7(32)1
.....3N-7330

[kriegel]

I didn't mean an entire relay structure, just something like 1M - 2♣; 2♦ being a relay instead of natural diamonds to give responder room to show his hand type.

[awm]

There are lots of things you can do; a simple approach is to just bid naturally over 2♣ with a few exceptions:

(1) 1M-2♣-3 new suit = splinter with five card support for clubs.
(2) 1M-2♣-3♣ = four clubs

Others normal. In the sequence 1M-2♣-3♣:

... 3♦ = 4+♣, asking for shortness
... 3M = 3-card support, not a real club suit
... 3OM = 3-card support for partner's major, real club suit, minimum game force, not suitable for direct 4M
... 3NT = 2443 type with three clubs and doubleton in partner's major, very NF
... 4M = "picture bid" with 3-card support and a good club suit

Over 1M-2♣-2X:

... 2M (if available) = 3-card support, may have four clubs but never a really good club suit
... 3M = 3-card support and real clubs that may be helpful as a trick source
... 2N = natural, but if 2M is unavailable may contain 3-card support (the cheaper bid lets pd pattern out, and we can always correct to the major later)

[SteveMoe]

Some conversation in Bridgewinners might help:
2/1 Minimum Response

Need System Advice

2/1 Rebids

Respond 2C or 1 S

[rhm]

 kriegel, on 2012-October-29, 22:02, said:

I didn't mean an entire relay structure, just something like 1M - 2♣; 2♦ being a relay instead of natural diamonds to give responder room to show his hand type.

It depends a bit to what extent your one level bids are limited or still need limitations.

I play that 1M - 2♣; 2♦ is done with any balanced or semi-balanced hand.
Any other rebid than 2♦ by opener shows an unbalanced hand (singleton or void).
1M - 2♣;2NT shows an unbalanced hand with diamonds being openers second suit (not (52)=4=2, which counts as semi-balanced)
1M - 2♣; 3♣ says opener second suit is clubs and his hand is unbalanced. Fit not established yet.
1M - 2♣; 2M not only shows 6 cards but also an unbalanced hand
With 6322 (even 7222) opener would bid 1M - 2♣; 2♦- 2anything; 3M

These agreements immediately separate opener's unbalanced hands from the rest.
One advantage is that the system provides better information when the choice is between 3NT and other game contracts and helps finding or avoiding slams based on distributional values.
The system provides more freedom, who will declare notrump. If responder grabs notrump, the defense often has little knowledge about declarers hand.

While opener can easily show different strength ranges (similar to standard) with balanced hands after 1M - 2♣; 2♦ the exact strength of unbalanced hands may be fuzzy below 3NT.
I believe showing distribution to be more important than extra strength.

Rainer Herrmann

[mgoetze]

I play 2♣ as GF with clubs, balanced GF, or an invitational hand with 3-card support (allowing me to play a nonforcing 1NT response). Opener's rebids are very easy: he bids 2♦ unless he has exceptional shape (5-5 etc.) and is willing to accept any invitation. Over 2♦, 2M shows the invite, 2NT shows the balanced GF, and anything else is natural with 5+ clubs. Over non-2♦ rebids, 4M shows the invitational hand.

[fromageGB]

I play the same as mgoetze, even with a forcing next step! One possible exception: our responder may have a 16+ with 4 cards in the other major (I guess if you play non-forcing NT it is 13+) and with that responder bids 2 OtherMajor over the 2♦ relay. This does not need to have clubs as well.

This is in fact not different in essence from the rhm method. Another note to add is that my preference is for 1M 2♣ 3m to show a strong 5-5, with a weaker one bidding the relay first.

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2012-November-25, 06:26