[MrAce]

1M--2x
3x--3M(openers major)

*Assume that 2x showed 4+ if it is minor (not 5+) and 3x denied to hold a stiff in unbid suits.
**Also assume that 3M did not promise a very good hand, 4M would just simply deny 1st or 2nd round control in unbid suits. A picture bid.

My question is, what are the good treatmemts here to set the correct suit as trumps and make pd know which suit we are cueing for or heading for. I usually play good bad 3 NT so keep that in the picture as well.

The problem i am facing with is, if we are going to end up playing slam, i usually want to be in the minor suit (IMPS and if borderline slam MP too) but if we are gonna settle in game i want to play the major. Is there a way to sort these all out in your methods or do we have to give up on some of them as we usually do in other type of auctions where we don't have enough space ?

By instinct, i usually bid responders minor at 4 level after 3M, to show i am really interested in his minor suit and slamish hand. And all other bids imply that the major is the suit. Is it that simple ? Or is there any better ways ?

Also, do your methods differ in different type of scoring ?

Thanks

[Yu18772]

Does 3x show some good hand, or any hand with 5422? I think that if 3x does not show extra, than at this point someone should really try to limit the hand or at least show wether its an absolute minimum or not....
We played a little differently than your agreements - 3x shows reasonable 14+hcp and 4+ card minor (did not deny singeltons), 3M did not show any extras, but 4M would be some really horrible hand absolutely no 1st or 2nd control in unbid suits for sure.
Also, we did not keep 3NT as a playable option after double fit was found even in MP. In this setup we used 3M+1 as unserious (if M is ♥ than 3♠ is minimum and 3NT by responder is ♠ control) - all this in the M suit.
Any direct cue is serious for M suit, and sets it as trump. Since we would want to go back to minor only for slam purposes, so it made sense that:
1M-2x
3x-3M
4x
or
1M-2x
3x-3M
3M+1*-4x
both show a hand with serious slam interest in the minor, and 4M over that shows no slam interest whatsoever.
This is somewhat simple, but worked well.

Yu

[MickyB]

Kx xxxx KQJx Axx. 1S:2D, 3D:?

If you bid 3S on this, is 3N clearly ART now?

If 3M does promise three cards then I'd trust your instinct...4M and 6m are sign-offs, 5m isn't, 4N is six keycard BW. If 3M doesn't promise three cards then you have to at least let responder correct 4M to 5m.

[Phil]

The major is assumed to be trump.

So Serious / NS applies and 6-ace RKC is helpful too with the double fit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I agree with Phil ...

1M - 1m
3m - 3M

Is a double-fit auction but M is the "established" suit .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Exception:
1S - 2H
3H - 3S

Hearts are the established suit and 3S is a cue-bid.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1m - 1M
3M - 4m

M is absolutely the trump suit and 4m is a cue-bid

[kenrexford]

The major is agreed. Cue. Both partners know slam might be in minor.

[jogs]

 MrAce, on 2012-October-17, 15:14, said:

1M--2x
3x--3M(openers major)

*Assume that 2x showed 4+ if it is minor (not 5+) and 3x denied to hold a stiff in unbid suits.
**Also assume that 3M did not promise a very good hand, 4M would just simply deny 1st or 2nd round control in unbid suits. A picture bid.

Thanks

This is where we part company. I firmly believe in fast arrival. Therefore 3M guarantees at least mild slam interest.
4M is a hand weak in controls(considering our previous action). Since an hand worth opening suggests 4+ controls, 4M is 3 or fewer controls.
1M - 2♣, 3♣ - 3M. This auction denies first or second round control of diamonds.
1M - 2♦, 3♦ - 3M. This auction says nothing about clubs.

Form of scoring are marginal effects on the bidding. Only minorly more willing to investigate slam in imps.

[Fluffy]

I understand that 2m promises 4 cards, but I didn't understand how many cards do 3m and 3M bids show.

1M-2m-3m-3M is written first in my list of 6 keycard blacwood sequences.

[MickyB]

I guess 1M:2D, 3D:3oM should just be stalling, so 3M can promise three cards. 1M:2C, 3C:3D shortage ask so again 3M promises three cards. So the major is assumed to be trumps below slam but 6m is always [an offer] to play, and 6KC RKCB applies if you play it.

[dake50]

I like assuming the agreed Major for slam tries.
Only 4x starts x-suit slam tries.

[gnasher]

I think it's normal that cue-bids agree the major and the only way to confirm the minor as trumps is to bid it. I also think it's wrong. As MrAce says, you are more likely to have slam in the minor than slam in the major. Hence, at least at IMPs, your methods should emphasize the minor-suit slam.

How about switching the meanings:

3NT = non-serious, not specific about strain
Four of the minor = setting the major as trumps
Any cue-bid = setting the minor as trumps

[PhilKing]

Seems like your agreements here are fine.

I wouldn't introduce any obscure new bits of kit for a one-off situation where the gain will be, at best, minimal.

[kenrexford]

 gnasher, on 2012-October-18, 11:05, said:

I think it's normal that cue-bids agree the major and the only way to confirm the minor as trumps is to bid it. I also think it's wrong. As MrAce says, you are more likely to have slam in the minor than slam in the major. Hence, at least at IMPs, your methods should emphasize the minor-suit slam.

How about switching the meanings:

3NT = non-serious, not specific about strain
Four of the minor = setting the major as trumps
Any cue-bid = setting the minor as trumps

The mere fact that the minor suit might be the ideal slam (especially at IMP scoring) does not seem to change anything.

Assume, for example, 1♠-2♦, 3♦-3♠.

You assume spades are trumps and cuebid. Thus, 3NT is serious, 4♣/4♦/4♥ courtesy cues, and 4♥ LTTC after bidding 3NT. If slam is declined, you stop at 4♠. If 4NT is bid, you could play this as (a) RKCB for spades, (b) 6KCB, or © RKCB for diamonds, if you really want. No matter what you do, the end contract will normally be 4♠, 5♠, or 6♦, perhaps.

So, what is the problem?

[gszes]

One of the things that people hate about j2n is the opener jumping to 4 of M with a dead min hand.
Your system is designed to avoid that pitfall but you still need a method to put on the brakes when
both hands are min. I suggest 3n as NON SERIOUS in the sense that it says p I am minimum.
1h 2c 3c 3h 3s CUE does not limit hand any other bid beyond 3n shows extra values.

1h 2c 3c 3h 3s 3N (minimum). In this series both partners have the ability to limit their hands w/o
taking up valuable bidding space. It is reasonable for 1s 2h 3h to establish hearts as the trump suit
but even then we can use 3n as NON SERIOUS (and denying a spade control).

Those who like to jump to show terrible minimum hands will continue to do so. Your system is off to
a good start striving to keep the bidding as low as feasible just remember to have a good set of brakes.

[Flem72]

 gnasher, on 2012-October-18, 11:05, said:

As MrAce says, you are more likely to have slam in the minor than slam in the major.

I love it when what looks to be an established factoid gives me a 'huh?'. Short answer: The reason the minor would be more likely is that the minor raise is probably 4 cards? I hope so, and if not, I don't want to hear the correct answer....

[MrAce]

To make it clear, 3m promises 4 card support. I thought that was obvious when i said 2m promised 4+ (not 5+)

But i really appreciate all the responses, it helped me a lot. In summary i saw most of you playing something like basically what my instinct bids were. I found Andy's suggestion very interesting and i kinda liked it.

I asked this question because some of you know i was away from bridge, for about 5 years and away from live bridge for about 8 years now. It doesn't seem like a very long time, but believe me the expert views and treatments changed a lot. You can only see this if you give a break like i did. I mean all these Gazilli, 2+ clubs, transfer responses , transfer auctions after preempts and all, they are not something i never heard but i saw that they have gained a lot of popularity and by reading the BBF i think i caught up most of the gap that i missed. I was just trying to make sure if there was any revolutinary treatment on this auction that i asked.

Again thanks to all of you

[gnasher]

 kenrexford, on 2012-October-18, 14:09, said:

The mere fact that the minor suit might be the ideal slam (especially at IMP scoring) does not seem to change anything.

Assume, for example, 1♠-2♦, 3♦-3♠.

You assume spades are trumps and cuebid. Thus, 3NT is serious, 4♣/4♦/4♥ courtesy cues, and 4♥ LTTC after bidding 3NT. If slam is declined, you stop at 4♠. If 4NT is bid, you could play this as (a) RKCB for spades, (b) 6KCB, or © RKCB for diamonds, if you really want. No matter what you do, the end contract will normally be 4♠, 5♠, or 6♦, perhaps.

So, what is the problem?

If we have two trump suits, that means we can't cue-bid in either of them. It's useful to be able to agree diamonds, then have one partner cue-bid in spades.

[gnasher]

 Flem72, on 2012-October-18, 17:52, said:

I love it when what looks to be an established factoid gives me a 'huh?'. Short answer: The reason the minor would be more likely is that the minor raise is probably 4 cards?

Yes. The major-suit fit will usually be 5-3, and the minor-suit will be 4-4 or 5-4. If we play in the minor, we may be able to cope with a 4-1 break in the major by ruffing it out, we may throw side-suit losers on the major, and we're less likely to suffer a defensive ruff.

[cherdano]

 gnasher, on 2012-October-19, 01:10, said:

If we have two trump suits, that means we can't cue-bid in either of them. It's useful to be able to agree diamonds, then have one partner cue-bid in spades.

I think opener will very rarely have the hand that can commit to not playing in 4♠.

[MrAce]

 cherdano, on 2012-October-19, 01:19, said:

I think opener will very rarely have the hand that can commit to not playing in 4♠.

I didn't understand why you said this, please tell me if i missed something.

If he will settle in game nobody disagrees with you, and Andy already said that it matters when we want to go further than game either for invitation or just going to slam but making pd sure he knows what our intention is.

Playing 2/1 openers 3m can be as weak as 11 hcp or a giant with 5422 shape. Another thing that took my attention is, in forums people seem to easily ignore the hands that are rare. Which is fine if we have to choose between the more frequent ones and rare ones. But it is not ok if we have space or tools to cover them both, because good players or teams seem to be much more accurate than others when they face that rare type of hands. This is why i found his suggestion interesting and i liked it, because after all he is (sort of) covering both. And slam ambition, playing 2/1, when our pd bids 2 of a minor and we hold 4 of them, may not be as rare as we think.

I did not see too many responses when the respnders suit is hearts though. For example if it was minor we could bid 4m after 3M to show our interest in minor and therefore interest in slam as i instinctly did it so far and as most replies suggested, but how are we going to do this when the auction starts 1♠-2♥-3♥.

NOTE: I do not believe in fast arrival except not more than handful auctions. As i mentioned earlier 1M-2x-3x-4M is not a fast arrival for me. I doubt it is fast arrival for majority of experts either. They already left doing it when i was still active player about almost a decade ago. This is my assumption though, i maybe wrong about this.