[MinorKid]

 SimonFa, on 2012-September-18, 00:45, said:

I know this sort of discussion has come up before but I can't find a specific thread.

Unusually for UK we play 2/1 SAYC but don't have a great deal of time for discussions so we do get the odd disagreement at the fringes and don't have anyone to ask. Anyway last night we had a disagreement on this hand:

♠ KJxxx
♥ Kx
♦ AQJT9x
♣

♠ T
♥ AJxx
♦ 8xxx
♣ AQTx

(hands may not be exactly right except for partner's Diamonds as I didn't write them down)

RvR, MPs, partner deals

1S (2C) X (p)
3D* (p) 3NT AP

* partner tanks, thinking about 6D

At the end of the hand I mentioned that partner should have bid his diamonds first because I would never believe they were longer than his spades. Partner is adamant that in SAYC he has to show his 5-card major first.

I said I would look in to it and I can't find anything in the SAYC booklet of my book Standard Bidding with SAYC. However, as it happens I am rereading Mike Lawrence's Judgement at Bridge and he goes to town on the theme of bidding your longer minor first, so maybe that's where I got it from.

So, my question: is their a "standard" opening of partner's hand in SAYC or is it a GBK thing?

As always, thanks in advance,

Simon

I am a novice here. I think it is okay for north to open 1♠.

How about bidding 4♦ over 3NT ?

MinorKid

[Quantumcat]

 MinorKid, on 2012-September-24, 21:14, said:

I am a novice here. I think it is okay for north to open 1♠.

How about bidding 4♦ over 3NT ?

MinorKid

It's not okay for north to open 1♠ and bid 4♦, because you should try to tell the truth about relative suit lengths whenever you can. Bidding a higher ranked suit then a lower ranked suit always shows either equal length, or more of the higher suit than the lower one.

The only reason people are saying it is okay to open 1♠ (after weakening the hand), is because they don't expect a chance to show any of their diamonds, and they'd rather show five cards with their opening than three. Even if they do get the opportunity to show their diamonds, they'll only ever be able to show four, and if they get really lucky, maybe five. But they'll definitely never be able to show the sixth.

[Siegmund]

The majority of my partners would always open 1S with five, even with a longer minor.

It is, however, a style thing, and one where different regions and cliques have different styles. It DOES make some difference to the rest of your bidding, whether you open 1S on 5-6 or not: if you open 1D, and rebid spades, and then rebid spades again when the opps bid 4H, playing the "longest suit first" style that shows 5-6 but playing "5 spades always opens 1S", the diamonds-spades-and-spades-again sequence tends to be 4-6 or 4-7, chunky spades, offering partner the choice of a 4-3 major fit or going back to the long minor.

[mikestar13]

The style I play is 1 major on minimums, 1 minor on better hands. It should be noted that it doesn't matter much which minor is held, but I'm more nervous on an iffy hand with 5 hearts than with 5 spades. With spades, rebidding 4♠ over the enemy's 4♥ will often be a winner, but 5♥ over their 4♠ is rather less likely to produce lasting happiness.

[bluecalm]

Dunno about sayc but I like opening 1m with 6m-5M.
One problem is though that if we do that then:
1D - 1S
3H;
1D - 1N
3H

and similar ought to show 6-5 and ~12-14(15) hcp but those are also useful as shortness showing so you need to pack strong one suited hands somewhere else and then have some way to bid stoppers or shortnesses. All this discussion is kinda pointless in sayc which doesn't have any way to bid 16-21 single suited hands anyway but in some civilized system those are problems to solve.

[mikl_plkcc]

If I were to open 1 of a suit, I always open the 6-card suit in 6-5. No exceptions.

[gwnn]

 bluecalm, on 2012-September-26, 10:20, said:

All this discussion is kinda pointless in sayc which doesn't have any way to bid 16-21 single suited hands anyway but in some civilized system those are problems to solve.

What do you mean? With 15-17 ish you can rebid 3 of your suit, with 18-20 ish you can rebid 3NT or if very strong, open 2C. There are problems with finding 3-card support for responder's major but that doesn't mean SAYC doesn't have any way these hands.