[amre_man]

My 86 year old father has taken up bridge within the last 2 years. He has fair card sense but generally overstates his hand. He follows some of his own conventions which are not advertised, are generally out of the norm, often change from hand to hand, i.e. Overcalls opps open with 4 card major and insufficient points to open or X, ignores vully, ignores the scoring implications, etc.

He arrives at BBO and asks to be assigned to a table, is always assigned to a Main club table. I told him to find people in Relaxed. He ignored.

He claims he is disrupting opponents bidding. I take the position he is lying to his partner and his opponents both and have told him so. Until such time as he follows conventional rules I will not play with him and have told him so.

I have shown him his wide swinging scoring history on BBO and tried to explain the scoring swings as too severe. He cares not.

I'm hoping that if I can show him a set of specific rules that showcase rules he is breaking perhaps he will change his ways.

I know his actions are inappropriate. Does anyone have knowledge of specific rules, chapter and verse, that I can show him in hopes of getting him off the dime?

Thanks!

[Vampyr]

The main danger here, IMO, is that your father will run out of partners when they discover that they can't trust his bidding. Law 20F deals with explanations of the bidding. The opponents are entitled to explanations of partnership agreements. It seems that your father's bids are not normally according to agreements with his partners, so they are subject to explanation only if there is an implicit agreement, which would happen when his partner has seen his tendencies before. The opponents are entitled to everything partner knows, but no more.

However, if "standard"-type agreements are assumed, then too-frequent violations may result in misinformation.

It might be best for you to play with your father, and insist on a set of agreements. Let him choose them all, but tell him that you can't play properly unless you know that he, almost all the time, will honour these agreements.

[jillybean]

There are no rules than ban undisciplined, aggressive or idiotic bidding. What is prohibited is to have an undisclosed agreement with your partner where you overcall with 4 card majors, open extremely light or use other undisclosed conventions.

Your father is not breaking any rules other than table etiquette. I think he will find that people will not want to play with or against him and he will have a miserable time being booted from tables or denied seating. Bridge is a partnership game and undisciplined, erratic bidding is damaging to partnership confidence.

[CSGibson]

Your 86 year old father is an active bidder? So is my partner. He says it gets him good results. I find it frustrating sometimes, but I think overall he is right. I don't know the specifics of your father's actions, but its not like an aggressive bidding style is so far out of the norm. Even better, as he practices it, he will start to develop judgment based on the results he obtains.

In short, stop harassing your dad over his bidding, it may not be your style, but its not like its cheating or something, and it can be a way to winning bridge.

[ggwhiz]

If you really want to modify his approach play with him and drill into concrete examples of why and why not in the post mortem.

[Cthulhu D]

CSGibson, on 2012-July-14, 11:13, said:

Your 86 year old father is an active bidder? So is my partner. He says it gets him good results. I find it frustrating sometimes, but I think overall he is right. I don't know the specifics of your father's actions, but its not like an aggressive bidding style is so far out of the norm. Even better, as he practices it, he will start to develop judgment based on the results he obtains.

Yeah, nothing wrong with 4 card overcalls etc as long as you're on the same page as whoever you are playing with.

[Vampyr]

CSGibson, on 2012-July-14, 11:13, said:

Even better, as he practices it, he will start to develop judgment based on the results he obtains.

This is true. It will be best for your father to discover the limits himself.

Perhaps online is not the best environment for a new player, especially an older one?

[amre_man]

Thank you all for your comments!

I will invite him to play and point out his 'opportunities' in after action analysis. Depending upon his willingness to listen, I'll see how far I can bring him along.

[TimG]

Vampyr, on 2012-July-14, 12:36, said:

This is true. It will be best for your father to discover the limits himself.

Perhaps online is not the best environment for a new player, especially an older one?

I think online is a great environment for a newer player. And, no reason to assume poor computer skills just because the person is "older".

[barmar]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-July-14, 12:28, said:

Yeah, nothing wrong with 4 card overcalls etc as long as you're on the same page as whoever you are playing with.

But he's NOT on the same page as his partner. He's playing with random pick-up partners.

Unfortunately, the bridge laws on disclosure make the assumption that partnerships actually form agreements. They didn't really anticipate the online environment where players form fleeting partnerships for a few hands, with little to no discussion of conventions. If you don't have any agreements, you can't really fail to disclose them.

However, even if you have agreements, the laws allow you to violate them, as long as partner has no more reason to expect the deviation than opponents. Repeated deviations may form implicit agreements, but since he's not playing much with the same partners, this can never really happen. So there's essentially nothing in the bridge laws that says that you can't bid however you like with fleeting partnerships.

So what it really comes down to is consideration of others. We're playing bridge to have fun, and when you bid randomly like this you make things unpleasant for everyone at the table. It's not as bad as the people who spew racial epithets or call their partners "idjits" whenever they make a mistake, but it's not a way to make friends on BBO.

[Cthulhu D]

barmar, on 2012-July-14, 22:09, said:

But he's NOT on the same page as his partner. He's playing with random pick-up partners.

Unfortunately, the bridge laws on disclosure make the assumption that partnerships actually form agreements. They didn't really anticipate the online environment where players form fleeting partnerships for a few hands, with little to no discussion of conventions. If you don't have any agreements, you can't really fail to disclose them.

However, even if you have agreements, the laws allow you to violate them, as long as partner has no more reason to expect the deviation than opponents. Repeated deviations may form implicit agreements, but since he's not playing much with the same partners, this can never really happen. So there's essentially nothing in the bridge laws that says that you can't bid however you like with fleeting partnerships.

So what it really comes down to is consideration of others. We're playing bridge to have fun, and when you bid randomly like this you make things unpleasant for everyone at the table. It's not as bad as the people who spew racial epithets or call their partners "idjits" whenever they make a mistake, but it's not a way to make friends on BBO.

So after the auction (P)-P-(1C) you're never overcalling 1D with AKQx and nothing else outside? Bridgewinners articles from better players than me advocate 4 card overcalls in that exact situation with a worse suit. Ignoring the scoring implications is bad, but there are definitely 'right' times to make 4 card overcalls and everyone should expect it sometimes.

[rsteele]

He's 86 and having fun - get over it.

[Vampyr]

TimG, on 2012-July-14, 20:31, said:

I think online is a great environment for a newer player. And, no reason to assume poor computer skills just because the person is "older".

Online play is not the best way to develop serious partnerships or have useful discussions of bidding methods/style. Nor does it lend itself to conducting a post-mortem with other players (some of whom, with any luck, are stronger players). And a lot of newer players improve by asking the advice of more experienced players.

[barmar]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-July-15, 00:33, said:

So after the auction (P)-P-(1C) you're never overcalling 1D with AKQx and nothing else outside? Bridgewinners articles from better players than me advocate 4 card overcalls in that exact situation with a worse suit. Ignoring the scoring implications is bad, but there are definitely 'right' times to make 4 card overcalls and everyone should expect it sometimes.

There are certainly times when it's right to make 4-card overcalls. But that doesn't sound like what's going on, from the way the OP described it. It sounds like he's much more random than this.

[billw55]

amre_man, on 2012-July-14, 09:43, said:

I know his actions are inappropriate. Does anyone have knowledge of specific rules, chapter and verse, that I can show him in hopes of getting him off the dime?

There are no rules or laws on BBO pickup games. It is law of the jungle only. For the most part, when you do stupid things, either your partner leaves or you get booted from the table.

Your dad is using BBO in a way he enjoys. Who cares if his bids are good or bad? If you refuse to play with him over it, that is your choice, but you might want to think about how long you have left to spend time with him, at bridge or in any other way.

[TimG]

Vampyr, on 2012-July-15, 16:46, said:

Online play is not the best way to develop serious partnerships or have useful discussions of bidding methods/style.

Best? Probably not, but we're not talking about someone who is trying to develop a "serious partnership", we're talking about an 86 year-old beginner. Useful discussion? It certainly can be. There are electronic hand records that make it quite easy for a beginner to review things and ask questions.

If my son were learning to play bridge, I'd be quite happy for him to play online and ask me questions about what happened afterwards. Or, I could even look through the hands he played and bring up topics that he might not have known to ask about. Seems like a great environment to me.

[pigpenz]

rsteele, on 2012-July-15, 12:43, said:

He's 86 and having fun - get over it.

yes be glad that he can still think, I think

[Phil]

I want to be exactly like your father is at age 86.

By the way, I just asked an 85 year old to play in the NAP's, who seems to bid like your father, although his card play is maybe a skosh better.