[Cthulhu D]

You sit west Vul against NV at teams. The opponents are on tilt. South deals and passes, and you pick up the following collection:

---

I opened this 1S. I can systematically open it as a GF with majors, but didn't because I thought the heart suit sucked. This was perhaps unfortunate. The 3H was undiscussed but partner and I were both on the same page that it was a natural second suit and forcing to game.

Alternative options to 3D are: 4D splinter agreeing spades, 3H, 4C fitjumps, 2S competitive, 3S pre-emptive, 4S very pre-emptive and 2NT limit+

Question: It's your turn to bid in the diagram. This is where I committed the fatal mistake. Do you bid 5S here or do you pass? Going up in front of partner seems a bit bad.. but I do have a 6/5 two suiter with no defence. Though maybe 3H shows that?

Results: It turns out that 5H is one off and 5Dx'ed is going for 500 (for a game swing in as at the other table our team mates opened the south hand leading to the auction 1D-(2D)-5D and oppo guessed wrong).

As it turns out partner has 3/2 in the majors and 6(!) clubs, so maybe 3D wasn't the greatest bid ever there, but it doesn't affect the question.

vvvvv: Bidding replaced by diagram. 3C would be round forcing.

[mike777]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-May-31, 22:11, said:

You sit west Vul against NV at teams. The opponents are on tilt. South deals and passes, and you pick up the following collection:

S: AK9xxx
H: KJ8xx
D: J
C: 2

I opened this 1S. I can systematically open it as a GF with majors, but didn't because I thought the heart suit sucked. This was perhaps unfortunate.

(P)-1S-(2D)-3D*
(X)-???

I bid 3H. This was completely undiscussed but partner and I were both on the same page that it was a natural second suit and forcing to game.

(P)-1S-(2D)-3D*
(X)-3H-(4D)-4S
(5D)-???

* good diamond raise.

Question: This is where I committed the fatal mistake. Do you bid 5S here or do you pass? Going up in front of partner seems a bit bad.. but I do have a 6/5 two suiter with no defence. Though maybe 3H shows that?

Results: It turns out that 5H is one off and 5Dx'ed is going for 500 (for a game swing in as at the other table our team mates opened the south hand leading to the auction 1D-(2D)-5D and oppo guessed wrong).

As it turns out partner has 3/2 in the majors and 6(!) clubs, so maybe 3D wasn't the greatest bid ever there, but it doesn't affect the question.

Fwiw I think you misspoke.....3d is not a good D raise.

so you have spade raise as:
2s or3s or 3d or 4s or splinter

In any event 3h seems like a good start


fwiw2 I Think her 3d bid is important and does affect your bids


fwiw3 would 3c be forcing at least one round or gf?

[helene_t]

I think 5♠ is enough. Pass followed by 5♠ (partner is ging to double if I pass) would show a stronger hand.

[Fluffy]

Bids below 3♠ should not be used as GF, but as invitational (or more). That would mena 3♥ is not so strong as you think. 4♥ on the other hand would show 2 suits to help partner if the bidding gets competitive.

Helene considers this hand between 5♠ and pass->5♠. I consider it between 5♠ and pass->pass. So 5♠ is probably right.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You said partner had 6 cards Cl and 3 cards Sp.... so if he had enough values for game, a 4C - fit jump would have been more descriptive. This might put you off on later bidding 5S.

[mikeh]

I agree with Fluffy in that I think that using 3♥ as GF is misguided. Using it as a game try (whether showing hearts or, because the auction is jammed, just a generic game try is up to you....since I like double of 3♦ as a generic game try, I use 3♥ as a natural gametry). I think you will find that making game decisions here is more important and certainly far more frequent than exploring slam. In addition, you can make your 3♥ 'game-try' and then make another move if you have strong slam interest.

As for the choice over 5♦: partner has denied the heart A already....you gameforced and since you did so by bidding below game, you expressed slam interest. He HAD to cue the heart A if he had it, so he doesn't.

This makes your heart suit dangerous for the 5-level.....he needs extra trump if he has shortness, or he needs the heart Q, and now maybe they get a heart ruff.

You've shown much of your hand...I think you can pass here, and pass a reopening double.

My first instinct was a wtp 5♠, but then I thought some more about the heart suit and realized that partner is better positioned than I am to make the final decision. if he has zero hcp in hearts, then he has minor cards that will work on defence. if he has extra trump and short hearts, then he knows his majors are working. With a 3=2=2=6, he has (I assume) an easy double

Btw, I like 4♥ over 3♦ as my power two suiter....there is virtually no point in playing 4♥ as shortness when the opps have bid and raised diamonds....you can play a lot of bridge for a long time and not have the need for a 4♥ splinter bid.

[Phil]

3♥ for me is the generic game try. Redouble would suggest, but not dictate defending and I would make that hand with a strong NT type hand - 5422 in this context.

Using these methods, I do not like 3♥ and much prefer 4♥. This shows the 2nd suit and helps prepare partner for the upcoming decision over 5♦.

4♥ by partner over 4♦ would be Last Train, and does not say anything about hearts.

We are in a forcing pass - that's clear. If I wanted to invite 6, I would pass and pull the double.

So a direct 5♥ looks like a mild try and a delayed 5♥ is a stronger try. Doesn't a direct 5♥ seem perfect?

[mikeh]

Phil, on 2012-June-01, 11:21, said:

3♥ for me is the generic game try. Redouble would suggest, but not dictate defending and I would make that hand with a strong NT type hand - 5422 in this context.

Using these methods, I do not like 3♥ and much prefer 4♥. This shows the 2nd suit and helps prepare partner for the upcoming decision over 5♦.

4♥ by partner over 4♦ would be Last Train, and does not say anything about hearts.

We are in a forcing pass - that's clear. If I wanted to invite 6, I would pass and pull the double.

So a direct 5♥ looks like a mild try and a delayed 5♥ is a stronger try. Doesn't a direct 5♥ seem perfect?

Given the context, is it clear that partner's hypothetical 4♥ would be last train?

We are already exploring for slam and he has a forcing pass available over 4♦, so why do we need last train?

I would think that the need to be able to cue a heart control (the Ace or King given that partner has shown the suit naturally) is far more important than being able to show modest slam interest.....we can do that by passing so using 4♥ as last train seems to give us two ways to show some mild slam interest and no way to cue in the most important suit, at least not below the 5 level.

Note...in my earlier post, I got confused about where I was in the auction....I meant that I would play redouble of 3♦, not 'double', as a generic gametry, thus for me 3♥ is a natural game try, and the redouble, tho generic, would deny a 3♥ call of course.

[Phil]

Once we make a game try (and that it is slicing it thin in a limit raise auction), I wouldn't think we are in a forcing pass over 4♦.

[mikeh]

Phil, on 2012-June-01, 12:12, said:

Once we make a game try (and that it is slicing it thin in a limit raise auction), I wouldn't think we are in a forcing pass over 4♦.

but the context was that 3♥ was gf.

[SteveMoe]

I usually play a forcing pass in a competitive auction when our side has a fit and invitational plus values. While the auction qualifies, I would not make one here over 5♦. I would instead bid 5♥ to show an alternative suit/source of tricks. partner should correct to 5♠. I concur with all the others above who would have bid 4♥ not 3.

[Phil]

mikeh, on 2012-June-01, 12:20, said:

but the context was that 3♥ was gf.

I missed that. Then I agree FP is on, no last train below game, yada yada.