[gwnn]

http://www.worldbridge.org/zones/

[gnasher]

gwnn, on 2012-April-18, 04:00, said:

http://www.worldbridge.org/zones/

And also
http://www.worldbrid...ist.asp?qzone=1

If we're considering only members of NBOs, 523 Bulgarian Precision-players aren't going to matter much in comparison to the 160,000 North Americans, most of whom play 2/1.

[Zelandakh]

gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 02:55, said:

Which system do you think would be more popular?

5 card majors, strong NT and non-GF 2/1s for instance? I am reasonably confident this would cover the majorities in Germany, France, Italy and the USA to name but 4 large countries. For every expert pair playing 2/1, how many LOLs do you think are playing a simple 5 card major system?

[Zelandakh]

gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 04:17, said:

160,000 North Americans, most of whom play 2/1.

Most North Americans play 2/1? Really? Any evidence to support this statement - remember to count all the kitchen bridge players still using something like Goren. I would be wrong to assume all bridge players are members of the local Union. For one thing, I am not...

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on 2012-April-18, 04:48, said:

Most North Americans play 2/1? Really? Any evidence to support this statement - remember to count all the kitchen bridge players still using something like Goren. I would be wrong to assume all bridge players are members of the local Union. For one thing, I am not...

I didn't say that most North Americans play 2/1. I suggested that most North Americans who are members of their NBO play 2/1. As I understand it, 2/1 is prevalent throughout the ACBL, not just at the top level. However, that belief derives largely from anecdote. Maybe someone who spends a lot of time in North American bridge clubs can help us out?

If you're including kitchen bridge players, I'd say that most of them don't play any recognisable system. But again I'm relying on anecdote rather than recent experience.

Quote

5 card majors, strong NT and non-GF 2/1s for instance? I am reasonably confident this would cover the majorities in Germany, France, Italy and the USA to name but 4 large countries.

Again this is a matter of how you define the question, but personally I don't think that's one system. Standard French is very different from Standard American.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 05:12, said:

I didn't say that most North Americans play 2/1. I suggested that most North Americans who are members of their NBO play 2/1. As I understand it, 2/1 is prevalent throughout the ACBL, not just at the top level.

Oh, perhaps not just at the top level, but also at the level just below that. But keep in mind that this is a pyramid we are talking about.

[han]

gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 05:12, said:

I didn't say that most North Americans play 2/1. I suggested that most North Americans who are members of their NBO play 2/1. As I understand it, 2/1 is prevalent throughout the ACBL, not just at the top level. However, that belief derives largely from anecdote. Maybe someone who spends a lot of time in North American bridge clubs can help us out?

8 years ago the system most dominant in the North American clubs I played in was 5-card majors, strong notrump, 2/1 not forcing to game.

[mgoetze]

han, on 2012-April-18, 05:22, said:

8 years ago the system most dominant in the North American clubs I played in was 5-card majors, strong notrump, 2/1 not forcing to game.

Yup I strongly suspect some sort of system where 1M shows 5+ cards, 1NT is 15-17, and a 2/1 promises a rebid but is not GF is most popular. The question is whether it is

(a) Better minor,
(b) 1♦ 4+ or 4=4=3=2,
© 1♦ promises 4 or
(d) all of the above because we consider this to all be the same system.

I recall starting a thread in which I discovered that (a) through © are not the only options and/or don't necessarily mean the same thing to all people. Which brings me back to the question of "what's a system?"

[jkljkl]

Well some shifting towards 2/1 is already happening:

Standard Italia became 2/1 gf
http://www.federbrid....asp?docs=convB

In France there are books produced by Le Bridgeur that suggest a shift to 2/1 calling it "Standard pour l'an 2000"
http://www.lebridgeu...00-tome-ii.html

The first book of this "standard 2000" has already been translated by the german bridge federation. etc.

So there are signs of a shift, but habits do not change fast so it will take a while till we see more 2/1 players at the bridge table.

ciao
stefan

[ArtK78]

32519, on 2012-April-14, 01:08, said:

There are quite a few countries with 5-card major based systems regarded as “standard” for the relevant country e.g.
1. USA = SAYC

NO!

SAYC is an invented simplified version of "Standard American." It was initially invented for use by pick-up partners at North American Championships so as to allow them to get together quickly and play without having to spend the time to fill out a full convention card. SAYC stands for "Standard American Yellow Card" and there were yellow cards available to anyone who wanted one at the supplies table.

SAYC has become the defacto "standard" system on BBO.

In serious competition, I would be surprised if anyone played SAYC.

In actual practice, the "standard" system in the US is still "Standard American," but 2/1 is far more common in most tournaments.

[Phil]

In our club, most in the junior game play SAYC and most in the open game play 2/1. This is a result of education, since Easybridge and Audrey Grant are SAYC-based. As players move up through the ranks, they usually take lessons on 2/1.

2/1 is something of a misnomer here. The bare-bones 2/1 with forcing 1N and 2/1 GF responses can be taught in an afternoon and are frequently simpler than parallel SAYC auctions, however, the term "2/1" implies a lot of additional treatments including inverted minors, Jacoby 2N, Drury, etc..

Of the 166,823 members of the ACBL, the median MP holding is between 175 and 200, so it would not surprise me that the system of the masses resembles SAYC. However, if you sit down in the first day at any NABC+ event, I would venture about 75% of the pairs play 2/1.

[fromageGB]

gwnn, on 2012-April-14, 10:07, said:

I get almost hit by a car at least twice a day every time I spend any time in the British Isles so I sympathise with your feeling. Nevertheless, I think it is just normal to have regional differences in most areas of human culture etc.

I think you'll find driving on the left helps.

But I agree with 32519 that it is time for the national authorities to abandon their own parochial "this is best for beginners" methods and collectively choose a world-wide standard. If the EBU abandoned "standard english" I think it would help prevent the stagnation of bridge in this country.

[Vampyr]

ArtK78, on 2012-April-18, 08:17, said:

SAYC is an invented simplified version of "Standard American." It was initially invented for use by pick-up partners at North American Championships so as to allow them to get together quickly and play without having to spend the time to fill out a full convention card. SAYC stands for "Standard American Yellow Card" and there were yellow cards available to anyone who wanted one at the supplies table.

I am not sure about this. I think that the Yellow Card was invented for Yellow Card tournaments.

[mycroft]

Stefanie is correct - it was one of two cards that got built so that we could hold "one card" tournaments for those people who didn't "want to have to deal with all these weird conventions and Alerts". Of course, both times we found that what they really meant was "I want to play *my* cool gadgets, I just don't want *them* to play their weird conventions"; so they withered on the vine.

But because it was a (reasonably) well-described card already available, and most pickups on OKBridge (at the time) could bend their mind to (most of - there were a few things that people Just Couldn't Remember) the Yellow Card, it was "suggested" as a default. And then that default got more obvious. Of course, a quote from my .sig file:

"We have the information that they play SAYC, but on OKB this often means little
more than the fact that the opponents can find the letters S, A, Y, and C on
their keyboard." -- Adam Beneschan, on rec.games.bridge

[gordontd]

fromageGB, on 2012-April-18, 08:52, said:

But I agree with 32519 that it is time for the national authorities to abandon their own parochial "this is best for beginners" methods and collectively choose a world-wide standard.

How likely do you think that is?

[ArtK78]

Vampyr, on 2012-April-18, 09:01, said:

I am not sure about this. I think that the Yellow Card was invented for Yellow Card tournaments.

Chicken and egg problem.

The Yellow Card came first. Yellow card tournaments followed.

Speaking of chicken and egg problems, one of my favorite one panel cartoons features two characters, a chicken and an egg, lying in bed. The chicken appears very satisfied, and is smoking a cigarette. The egg appears very grumpy, and says, "Well I guess we know the answer to that question!"

[gnasher]

fromageGB, on 2012-April-18, 08:52, said:

But I agree with 32519 that it is time for the national authorities to abandon their own parochial "this is best for beginners" methods and collectively choose a world-wide standard. If the EBU abandoned "standard english" I think it would help prevent the stagnation of bridge in this country.

Why shouldn't national authorities be parochial? They exist mainly to promote bridge nationally. To me it seems very sensible to teach a beginner a system that he can use with other players at his local club, rather than one that would be useful only if he happens to find himself on the other side of the world.

[gordontd]

Zelandakh, on 2012-April-18, 04:43, said:

5 card majors, strong NT and non-GF 2/1s for instance? I am reasonably confident this would cover the majorities in Germany, France, Italy and the USA to name but 4 large countries.

There is a habit of lumping these together as one system, but there are quite fundamental differences between, for example, Standard French & Standard American. Their NT rebids are quite different, which when combined with the French distaste for three-card major-suit raises by opener, has a big effect on major-suit rebids. I don't know about Standard German, but since I understand it's based on Standard French, I imagine the same sort of structure would apply.

[fromageGB]

gordontd, on 2012-April-18, 09:54, said:

How likely do you think that ( a worldwide common method/system to teach beginners) is?

Pretty unlikely, I admit ! But one can have daydreams. Chelsea could beat Barcelona on the return leg. Just because something is highly unlikely doesn't mean you should give in.

[fromageGB]

gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 10:05, said:

Why shouldn't national authorities be parochial? They exist mainly to promote bridge nationally. To me it seems very sensible to teach a beginner a system that he can use with other players at his local club, rather than one that would be useful only if he happens to find himself on the other side of the world.

gordontd, on 2012-April-18, 10:05, said:

There is a habit of lumping these together as one system, but there are quite fundamental differences between, for example, Standard French & Standard American. Their NT rebids are quite different, which when combined with the French distaste for three-card major-suit raises by opener, has a big effect on major-suit rebids.

I agree that the purpose of national authorities should be to promote bridge in their areas, but there is no reason why it all has to be different. I would like to have a solid understanding of commonly accepted methods (even though in my own partnerships I will adapt and extend, or perhaps do something completely different) so that I CAN sit down with a pickup partner in a club in France while on holiday and have better than a better than basic game, one that does not often go wrong when you get to the rebids. I am lucky in that I have played 5 card majors in Acol from the beginning before I switched to 2/1 years ago, so I have a better intrinsic chance than someone without that background.

It would help, too, for beginners venturing into online bridge, so that they feel more comfortable.

As to whether the common system is natural, strong club, strong pass or whatever, I don't think it really matters. People will learn it, and be able to interact with anyone anywhere. And of course, if everyone was taught the same methods, he COULD play with other players in his own local club. It's just the switchover that is difficult.