[hirowla]

Hi,

I was wondering if anybody had suggestions on how to handle things when your partner doubles the opposition's opening bid of 1NT for penalty. I realise that it happens rarely playing standard, but most people at my club play a 12-14 NT opening so doubling (with 15+ points) is very viable.

A couple of thing I'd like advise on is:

• What is the main criteria for when to leave it in and when to get out of it?
  
• If you get out of it, any suggestions on a good way to get to a playable contract? Any systems which may cover most hands?
  
• Any suggestions on how to get to any games, as this can happen?

Just to be clear, I'm looking from the perspective of the partner of the person doing the doubling (i.e 1NT - X - P - ?) not the partner of the 1NT bidder - I have a couple of ways to get out of that situation, but not when you are the partner of the doubler.

Any ideas would be helpful.

Regards,

Ian

[ahydra]

Leaving it in with any decent 5-count or better is the norm. As for what happens next... it's important to have good agreements. Perhaps a starting point would be 2x = nat 0-7ish, to play (though doubler can go on with a mammoth hand), 2NT natural and invitational and 3x = forcing, but you could probably do better than this.

More important is to have good agreements about what happens if they run away. Is double (by either player) in an auction like (1NT)-X-(2S)-X or (1NT)-X-(p*)-p-(XX*)-p-(2C)-X for takeout or penalty? (here *pass = forces a redouble) One common agreement is "after a penalty X or XX, any other X or XX is penalty" which keeps things simple but can leave you annoyed if you have a nice takeout double of the opponent's run-out suit. Perhaps a better agreement is that the first double of a suit bid after they run away is "co-operative", i.e. can be left in with a suitable hand but is generally better taken out. A cuebid should be asking for a stop for 3NT.

As for how to get to game - the best option is probably the old-fashioned game try, i.e. bid game then try to make it.

ahydra

[Flameous]

When you hold weak balanced hand, I'd advice to just suck it up and pass. Your chances of finding a playable 4-4 fit are really small and some part of that time your partner holds a monster and has them set in his own hand. And depending on your opps' methods, opener might still bid a five card suit.

With weak hand and 5 card or longer suit it's simple, you just bid it. 2NT natural inv is practically useless, so I'd use it for strong two suited hand that doesn't want to pass the double. 3x should probably be distributional invite, again one that doesn't want to gamble partner finding the right lead.

ahydra pretty much covered the more important ground of what to do when they try to run.

[mgoetze]

Personally I play as if we had opened 1NT here, i.e. (1NT)-X-(p)-2♣ is Stayman, (1NT)-X-(p)-2♦ is transfer to hearts etc. This will help you get out with some hands, not to mention let you find 4M games when that is right. But as Flameous said, with a weak balanced hand, just leave it in. Partner might even have it down in his own hand, you never know. Of course, if it goes (1NT)-X-(p)-p-(XX)-p-(p) you might want to scramble out with 2m.

[ahydra]

Yes, having gone for 1160 (1NTXX+1) I can recommend not leaving 1NTXX in unless you're absolutely certain it's going down

ahydra

[nigel_k]

Pass with no five card suit regardless of strength. Otherwise bid a five card suit if weak. The hard part is deciding what counts as 'weak'.

You need to consider a number of factors, including vulnerability, strength of opponents, form of scoring etc. Things that suggest pass are opponents being vulnerable, weak opponents, IMP scoring (because -180 will be very poor at matchpoints but may actually be your cheapest available minus at IMPs).

Also, they may be using methods where the auction cannot or may not end if you pass, i.e. the 1NT opener is expected to bid or redouble. They should alert but you won't always get redress if they don't so it's better to find out.

[awm]

Here's what I play by advancer after the penalty double and responder's pass/redouble:

Pass = 5+ points, not a hand with a huge amount of shape though; however if responder's pass/redouble was forcing then pass with any 0-4 hand w/o a suit too
2♦, 2♥, 2♠ = natural, five-card suit, at best about 5 hcp
2♣ = if opener's partner made a non-forcing pass or redouble (i.e. "to play") then 2♣ here is a scramble and could be on any flat hand
2♣ = if opener's partner made a forcing pass or redouble, then 2♣ is natural, five-card suit, at best about 5 hcp (same as 2♦♥♠ above)
2NT = any decent 5/5 hand (wants to bid our own game)
3x = natural six-card suit, better hand for declaring than defending (i.e. points in suit etc)

If responder bids something that is natural (i.e. 2♦ to play, or 2♦ diamonds and a major) then our first double is takeout (whether by opener or responder) and pass is not forcing. Bidding a new suit at the two-level shows 5+ cards there and is constructive and NF (like 5-8). If responder bids something that is artificial (like a transfer) then double by advancer is just "cards" and creates a forcing auction.

In general after 1NT-X-Pass-2♣ (scramble) the doubler will bid a five-card suit of his own if he has one. Otherwise he will fairly often pass (it is normally assumed that 2♣ has four or more clubs even though it easily might not) and we can run later if doubled. Or he can bid a chunky four-card suit etc.

-----

Apologies to mgoetze, but I think it is pretty bad to play "notrump systems on" in this sequence. The issues include: (1) Notrump systems are designed towards game bidding, whereas on this auction we usually want to just pass and defend if we have an invite or better and we need more ways to scramble on bad hands including those without a major suit (2) Notrump systems are designed to work facing a balanced hand, whereas here doubler can have all sorts of shapes (3) Transfers are designed to put declarership in the stronger hand, whereas here it is fairly often better to have the notrump opener on lead anyway so that he has to lead away from his honors.

[mgoetze]

awm, on 2012-March-04, 15:45, said:

Apologies to mgoetze, but I think it is pretty bad to play "notrump systems on" in this sequence.

That's alright, it just happens to be a very easy-to-remember agreement for a pretty rare situation. (Of course, the situation might be less rare for others, especially if you face the weak NT more often than I do.)

[Cyberyeti]

awm, on 2012-March-04, 15:45, said:

Here's what I play by advancer after the penalty double and responder's pass/redouble:

Pass = 5+ points, not a hand with a huge amount of shape though; however if responder's pass/redouble was forcing then pass with any 0-4 hand w/o a suit too
2♦, 2♥, 2♠ = natural, five-card suit, at best about 5 hcp
2♣ = if opener's partner made a non-forcing pass or redouble (i.e. "to play") then 2♣ here is a scramble and could be on any flat hand
2♣ = if opener's partner made a forcing pass or redouble, then 2♣ is natural, five-card suit, at best about 5 hcp (same as 2♦♥♠ above)
2NT = any decent 5/5 hand (wants to bid our own game)
3x = natural six-card suit, better hand for declaring than defending (i.e. points in suit etc)

If responder bids something that is natural (i.e. 2♦ to play, or 2♦ diamonds and a major) then our first double is takeout (whether by opener or responder) and pass is not forcing. Bidding a new suit at the two-level shows 5+ cards there and is constructive and NF (like 5-8). If responder bids something that is artificial (like a transfer) then double by advancer is just "cards" and creates a forcing auction.

In general after 1NT-X-Pass-2♣ (scramble) the doubler will bid a five-card suit of his own if he has one. Otherwise he will fairly often pass (it is normally assumed that 2♣ has four or more clubs even though it easily might not) and we can run later if doubled. Or he can bid a chunky four-card suit etc.

-----

Apologies to mgoetze, but I think it is pretty bad to play "notrump systems on" in this sequence. The issues include: (1) Notrump systems are designed towards game bidding, whereas on this auction we usually want to just pass and defend if we have an invite or better and we need more ways to scramble on bad hands including those without a major suit (2) Notrump systems are designed to work facing a balanced hand, whereas here doubler can have all sorts of shapes (3) Transfers are designed to put declarership in the stronger hand, whereas here it is fairly often better to have the notrump opener on lead anyway so that he has to lead away from his honors.

I think it's really bad to play anything that means you bid on a flat yarborough, it means you never take a penalty when partner has the really juicy hands.

I've recently had:

Flat 25 count - partner had flat yarborough, we go off if partner pulls, took 300

AKQJxx, AKx - opposite a jack - we took 8 tricks for 500 against a part score

The really juicy penalties out of 1Nxx are where they have the values to be in it, but you've doubled off something like the second hand here, you lose much of the upside of a penalty double if you pull these off bad flat hands.

[JLOGIC]

I play very similarly to awm

[hirowla]

Thanks for the advice people - very much appreciated. Definitely something to discuss with my various partners.

Thanks,

Ian

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-March-04, 18:57, said:

I think it's really bad to play anything that means you bid on a flat yarborough, it means you never take a penalty when partner has the really juicy hands.

I've recently had:

Flat 25 count - partner had flat yarborough, we go off if partner pulls, took 300

AKQJxx, AKx - opposite a jack - we took 8 tricks for 500 against a part score

The really juicy penalties out of 1Nxx are where they have the values to be in it, but you've doubled off something like the second hand here, you lose much of the upside of a penalty double if you pull these off bad flat hands.

It's a matter of percentages.
Assuming the opponents aren't playing anything special, if it starts

1NT dbl pass

and you have a flat yarborough, then the points are split between partner and RHO. The odds are that RHO has a fair percentage of them: partner doubles a weak NT on a balanced 17-count (say) far more often than on a flat 25-count.
I pass after a double of a weak NT on very weak balanced hands, but we play 2C as a scramble after a strong NT and double, because the odds are tilted even further.

[lmilne]

I remember reading a suggestion somewhere that after (1NT)-X-(XX, business), doubler's partner should be FORCED to pass. The logic was that when the opponents have quite a lot of points, partner is more likely to have doubled on a suit. It won't cost if you bid 2♣ scramble in these auctions, because partner will just bid his suit, but you do miss the occasions where partner has a solid 6-card suit or similar!