[chalks]

I hate 18 and 19 point not-quite-balanced hands. I don't know how to bid them.

I haven't played with this partner more than once, I'm east. We also had no mention of what 4th suit meant.

---

I'd like to go through the bidding and give my thoughts at each bid, please tell me where I'm wrong.

• 1♠ - 5+ spades, 13+ hcp
  
• 2♣ - 5+ clubs, 6+ hcp
  
• 3♦ - I think I would interpret this as 5-5 diamonds/spades and more hcp... how much more?
  
• 3♥ - game force... but with a new partner, probably just rejecting my suits. 5-4 in clubs/hearts?
  
• 3n - We don't have a fit, signing off at cheapest game

here are the hands:

---

I'd love to hear feedback about this hand specifically, but also any general tips/advice you have for bidding strong hands that can't be described with a nt bid.
Thanks.

[masse24]

 chalks, on 2012-January-30, 23:26, said:

I'd like to go through the bidding and give my thoughts at each bid, please tell me where I'm wrong.

• 1♠ - 5+ spades, 13+ hcp
  
• 2♣ - 5+ clubs, 6+ hcp
  
• 3♦ - I think I would interpret this as 5-5 diamonds/spades and more hcp... how much more?
  
• 3♥ - game force... but with a new partner, probably just rejecting my suits. 5-4 in clubs/hearts?
  
• 3n - We don't have a fit, signing off at cheapest game

here are the hands:

---

1.) Your 1♠ bid was fine. It shows a 13-21 point hand (since with 22 you would presumably open a strong 2♣.
2.) 2♣ here should promise 10+ HCP playing SAYC and, it would be a 1 round force. The best response instead would have been 1NT, showing 6-9(or a bad 10) HCP. It is not a suggestion to play No Trumps, but a description of the hand strength (an inability to bid at the 2 level) and, generally denies 3 or more cards in your major.
3.) 3♦ in the stated auction (since 2♣ should show 10+) is generally, by most people, considered a "High Reverse" which should show about a King extra than a minimum opening hand. So, around 15 HCP. This then would set the Game Force (since 15+10 = 25...enough for game). However, had your partner bid the correct 1NT, then you must come up with a bid that describes your hand. 3♦ would also be correct after 1NT. This is called "Strong Jump Shift" and it requires about 19 HCP and is also a Game Force.

So, the most likely auction I see using your methods (SAYC) would be:
1♠ - 1NT
3♦ - 3♥
3NT

[the hog]

 masse24, on 2012-January-31, 00:26, said:

1.) Your 1♠ bid was fine. It shows a 13-21 point hand (since with 22 you would presumably open a strong 2♣.
2.) 2♣ here should promise 10+ HCP playing SAYC and, it would be a 1 round force. The best response instead would have been 1NT, showing 6-9(or a bad 10) HCP. It is not a suggestion to play No Trumps, but a description of the hand strength (an inability to bid at the 2 level) and, generally denies 3 or more cards in your major.
3.) 3♦ in the stated auction (since 2♣ should show 10+) is generally, by most people, considered a "High Reverse" which should show about a King extra than a minimum opening hand. So, around 15 HCP. This then would set the Game Force (since 15+10 = 25...enough for game). However, had your partner bid the correct 1NT, then you must come up with a bid that describes your hand. 3♦ would also be correct after 1NT. This is called "Strong Jump Shift" and it requires about 19 HCP and is also a Game Force.

So, the most likely auction I see using your methods (SAYC) would be:
1♠ - 1NT
3♦ - 3♥
3NT

No.
1S 1NT
3D 3S
4S

Definitely NOT 3H rather than 3S. 3H here would show a decent 6 card H suit, not KQxx.

[phil_20686]

 the hog, on 2012-January-31, 02:36, said:

No.
1S 1NT
3D 3S
4S

Definitely NOT 3H rather than 3S. 3H here would show a decent 6 card H suit, not KQxx.

Good 5 card suit is fine IMO. x KQJ98 Kxx xxxx is an obvious 3h bid IMO.

On this hand, with both lenth and values in both the off suits, I think its fine to bid 3N rather than 3S. these 3S/3N decisions are difficult. Some people play that its obligatory to show a doubleton spade here, but that just makes it very hard for partner sometimes when the hands are like:
xx
QJT9
xx
QJT9x
i think it would be absurd not to just bid 3N. Obviousy most hands are somewhat grey. This one is borderline between 3s and 3N imo.

[ahydra]

If responder has to bid 3S with a doubleton, I'd prefer 3NT by opener. As for 3H, either it should suggest cover in that suit for 3NT or be nat, 5+ cards - up to you.

So I'd bid

1S-1NT
3D-3H
3NT-pass

Here, if opener did have a 6th spade, he could bid 3S rather than 3NT and the fit would still be found.

ahydra

[ArtK78]

 masse24, on 2012-January-31, 00:26, said:

1.) Your 1♠ bid was fine. It shows a 13-21 point hand (since with 22 you would presumably open a strong 2♣.
2.) 2♣ here should promise 10+ HCP playing SAYC and, it would be a 1 round force. The best response instead would have been 1NT, showing 6-9(or a bad 10) HCP. It is not a suggestion to play No Trumps, but a description of the hand strength (an inability to bid at the 2 level) and, generally denies 3 or more cards in your major.
3.) 3♦ in the stated auction (since 2♣ should show 10+) is generally, by most people, considered a "High Reverse" which should show about a King extra than a minimum opening hand. So, around 15 HCP. This then would set the Game Force (since 15+10 = 25...enough for game). However, had your partner bid the correct 1NT, then you must come up with a bid that describes your hand. 3♦ would also be correct after 1NT. This is called "Strong Jump Shift" and it requires about 19 HCP and is also a Game Force.

So, the most likely auction I see using your methods (SAYC) would be:
1♠ - 1NT
3♦ - 3♥
3NT

Just a quibble with your terminology.

The 3♦ bid in this sequence is a jump shift (literally, a jump bid in a new suit). Whether it is natural or something else is a matter of partnership agreement. As the 2♣ bid promises a rebid, there is no reason to jump.

A "high reverse" is a non-jump rebid at the 3 level in a lower ranking suit after a 2/1 response to an opening bid. For example, the 3♣ bid in this sequence is a "high reverse":

1♠ - 2♦
3♣

In standard, the high reverse was a game force (as the 2♦ bid promised 10+ and not game forcing values).

[masse24]

 ArtK78, on 2012-February-01, 08:53, said:

Just a quibble with your terminology.

Goodness!? Of course. Did I really type that?
This will teach me not to try to use my brain after midnight, since, it is at that hour that I turn into a pumpkin. (and apparently my brain into pumpkin mush)