[barmar]

The Laws say that a player may not make a bid with undue haste. Can the local regulations on STOP card use really override this law? I guess what they're trying to do is specify what constitutes "undue haste", and they're effectively saying that the skip bidder decides what's undue. Is that really legal?

[blackshoe]

Interesting question. It seems to me that a BIT might be in either direction — too short, or too long. A well written stop card regulation should handle both cases equally well.

[pran]

 barmar, on 2012-January-14, 15:19, said:

The Laws say that a player may not make a bid with undue haste. Can the local regulations on STOP card use really override this law? I guess what they're trying to do is specify what constitutes "undue haste", and they're effectively saying that the skip bidder decides what's undue. Is that really legal?

I assume that you are referring to

Law 73A2 said:

Calls and plays should be made without undue emphasis, mannerism or inflection, and without undue hesitation or haste. But Regulating Authorities may require mandatory pauses, as on the first round of the auction, or after a skip-bid warning, or on the first trick.

(My emphasis)

What legal problem do you see?

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-14, 15:25, said:

Interesting question. It seems to me that a BIT might be in either direction — too short, or too long. A well written stop card regulation should handle both cases equally well.

According to your criteria the Norwegian stop card regulation is indeed well written!

[barmar]

 pran, on 2012-January-14, 15:30, said:

What legal problem do you see?

Does allowing the RA to require mandatory pauses in some cases effectively give them full authority to determine what constitutes "undue hesitation or haste"? And does failure of one side to use the STOP card really mean that the other side can't be considered to have called with undue haste even if they do it instantaneously after the bid?

Suppose their normal tempo is 1-2 seconds per call, but this time they pass in a fraction of a second. Shouldn't that be considered a BIT even if the STOP card isn't used?

[blackshoe]

 pran, on 2012-January-14, 15:33, said:

According to your criteria the Norwegian stop card regulation is indeed well written!

Not if it allows a player to break tempo by bidding quickly if the stop card is not used.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2012-January-14, 18:34, said:

Does allowing the RA to require mandatory pauses in some cases effectively give them full authority to determine what constitutes "undue hesitation or haste"? And does failure of one side to use the STOP card really mean that the other side can't be considered to have called with undue haste even if they do it instantaneously after the bid?

Suppose their normal tempo is 1-2 seconds per call, but this time they pass in a fraction of a second. Shouldn't that be considered a BIT even if the STOP card isn't used?

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-14, 20:57, said:

Not if it allows a player to break tempo by bidding quickly if the stop card is not used.

Sven didn't say anything about this; I think that by "immediately" he meant in normal tempo. After all, any bid made much faster than a player's normal tempo is a BIT; why would this change after a bid that should have been preceded by the appearance of the STOP card? Why construct a straw man in order to criticise a well-written and sensible regulation?

[blackshoe]

I'm not constructing a straw man, and you don't know what Sven meant.

If the Norwegian regulation, in its interpretation, prohibits breaking tempo by bidding too quickly, fine, but that is not what he said.

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-14, 23:50, said:

I'm not constructing a straw man, and you don't know what Sven meant.

If the Norwegian regulation, in its interpretation, prohibits breaking tempo by bidding too quickly, fine, but that is not what he said.

The Laws prohibit breaking tempo by bidding too quickly.

[blackshoe]

Yes, I know they do.

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-15, 01:25, said:

Yes, I know they do.

If you know, then why are you suggesting that the Norwegian regulations condone deliberate infractions?

[Trinidad]

Maybe Blackshoe owes Sven an apology?

Rik

[blackshoe]

Maybe you people should read what Sven said, and what I said, before start asking why I'm doing something I'm not doing. And no, I don't owe Sven an apology.

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-14, 23:50, said:

I'm not constructing a straw man, and you don't know what Sven meant.

If the Norwegian regulation, in its interpretation, prohibits breaking tempo by bidding too quickly, fine, but that is not what he said.

Stefanie has understood perfectly well what I meant.

Why on earth has "bidding too quickly" anything to do in a discussion on mandatory pauses in the auction?

Just to dot the i's and cross the zeroes: The Norwegian regulation on STOP does not override Law 73A2 in any way, but it explicitly says that ten seconds is not undue hesitation in situations where STOP is required, whether or not STOP is correctly used.

[blackshoe]

You said that the Norwegian regulation permits the LHO of a player who has not used the stop card when making a skip bid is permitted to bid "immediately". If normal tempo is 2-3 seconds, "immediately" is less than that, and a violation of 73A2. That's based on what you said. If what you meant was "immediately, but in tempo" or suchlike, you should have said that.

The question is not about mandatory pauses, per se,. It is about whether a particular regulation appears to allow a violation of law.

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-15, 10:05, said:

You said that the Norwegian regulation permits the LHO of a player who has not used the stop card when making a skip bid is permitted to bid "immediately". If normal tempo is 2-3 seconds, "immediately" is less than that, and a violation of 73A2. That's based on what you said. If what you meant was "immediately, but in tempo" or suchlike, you should have said that.

The question is not about mandatory pauses, per se,. It is about whether a particular regulation appears to allow a violation of law.

Do I understand you correct that you never, ever make any call "immediately"?

When I say "immediately" in such context it is to be understood without any pause for thought but of course not with undue haste. Frankly I didn't expect any of my readers to misunderstand me on such a detail.

And a pause of 2-3 seconds will normally be ruled a pause for thought in Norway and therefore BIT by a player who has nothing to think about unless he is generally slow in his actions.

[blackshoe]

 pran, on 2012-January-15, 10:26, said:

Do I understand you correct that you never, ever make any call "immediately"?

I didn't say that. IAC, I don't see why what I do has any bearing on what the law says.

 pran, on 2012-January-15, 10:26, said:

When I say "immediately" in such context it is to be understood without any pause for thought but of course not with undue haste. Frankly I didn't expect any of my readers to misunderstand me on such a detail.

And a pause of 2-3 seconds will normally be ruled a pause for thought in Norway and therefore BIT by a player who has nothing to think about unless he is generally slow in his actions.

"It is to be understood"? Perhaps you should have given that instruction when you made your statement originally.

What is "normal tempo" in Norway? How was this value determined?

Last week, at the club, my RHO made a skip bid. I duly paused for ten seconds, then reached towards my bidding box. The instant my hand moved, my LHO's hand moved towards her bidding box. Our pass cards hit the table almost simultaneously. Do you think she broke tempo? I do.

It takes a second or so for a player to see his RHO's call, assimilate its meaning, and choose his own call. I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to keep my hand still until I've done all that, and then move it towards the bidding box. The reason for that is that I've been bitten in the past by having changed my mind while I was picking a card out of the box or on my way to doing so, and having an opponent call the TD, who ruled that my "hesitation" in picking the bidding card conveyed UI to my partner.

[Trinidad]

I would like to apologize to Blackshoe.

Rik

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-15, 11:43, said:

What is "normal tempo" in Norway? How was this value determined?

I don't know of any formal specification for the duration of "normal tempo".

From my own experience during more than sixty years with bridge (including my pre-director period) I would say that in a problem-free auction each call after the first round of the auction is made within about half a second (excluding possible STOP delays).

In a situation where anything but pass would be a great surprise I know of nobody who would react if that pass is made "simultaneously" within a split second from (you would probably say "simultaneously" with) RHO's call.

[AlexJonson]

 Trinidad, on 2012-January-15, 11:49, said:

I would like to apologize to Blackshoe.

Rik

Why?