[Furlan]

---

A top South American pair could not agree on the meaning of 6♣. What is it for you?

[mtvesuvius]

This is why I prefer 1430 Anyway, it should be the ♠Q and the ♣K

[Furlan]

Queen ask would be 5♥, not 5♠.

[matmat]

Furlan, on 2011-July-13, 22:54, said:

Queen ask would be 5♥, not 5♠.

If you already know the answer, why are you asking the question?

[mtvesuvius]

Furlan, on 2011-July-13, 22:54, said:

Queen ask would be 5♥, not 5♠.

Doesn't matter. This is a queen ask that is unsure whether partner has 1 or 4 (Is that even possible?!)

[the hog]

4 KC, Grand slam try, extra values in Clubs. Assuming the original C cure does not promise the A&K of C, then this shows the C king.

[gnasher]

It's normal to play that you reply to the queen ask in this situation, if you judge that a grand slam is possible.

Responder in this sequence is unlimited, so it's not an impossible scenario (though it does mean that 5♠ would have been in jeopardy opposite one keycard).

[Free]

It means 4 keycards and needs help in ♣ for grand.

[Cyberyeti]

Furlan, on 2011-July-13, 22:54, said:

Queen ask would be 5♥, not 5♠.

That's the queen ask for 6 opposite 1, it's embarrassing when you have one keycard each plus the ♠Q and you bid 6 although admittedly that's unlikely in this auction, but it's best to have general rules for this.

5♠ is a sign off saying as you say "pass with 1, bid on with 4".

You could have the agreement that 5N here is "4, interested in grand, no Q♠, only cue if you have it", in which case 6♣ says to me "I have ♠Q, ♣AK or AQ, quite often with the J, bid 7 with the missing one or cue bid me a red king if you haven't got it".

[VM1973]

I do not take 5♠ as a Queen ask because that's what 5♥ is. I believe the Blackwooder is indicating that they are missing 2 key cards and he wants to play 5NT. He cannot bid that directly as that would be asking for Kings and guaranteeing all 5 key cards.

6♣ must indicate a void in either hearts or diamonds.

I might be wrong.

[semeai]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-July-13, 22:54, said:

Doesn't matter. This is a queen ask that is unsure whether partner has 1 or 4 (Is that even possible?!)

How about:

QJxxxx
x
KQJ
Axx

or

QJxxxxx
x
KQJ
Ax

Partner could have:

A10xx
KQ
x
KQJxxx

or

A10x
KQ
xx
KQJxxx

Might as well be extra careful. Partner will know not to pass with e.g.:

AKxxx
A
Ax
Kxxxx

which is a 6♣ bid here.

[semeai]

Free, on 2011-July-14, 01:14, said:

It means 4 keycards and needs help in ♣ for grand.

Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-14, 02:32, said:

You could have the agreement that 5N here is "4, interested in grand, no Q♠, only cue if you have it", in which case 6♣ says to me "I have ♠Q, ♣AK or AQ, quite often with the J, bid 7 with the missing one or cue bid me a red king if you haven't got it".

How did the responder to keycard suddenly gain control of the auction?

[gnasher]

semeai, on 2011-July-14, 08:57, said:

How did the responder to keycard suddenly gain control of the auction?

He's the one who's unlimited. Perhaps a more accurate wording would be "needs help in ♣ for grand, provided that all the keycards are present".

Auctions aren't about control, they're about exchanging information.

[pooltuna]

not to play; shows a source of tricks and includes the AK and 3 other keycards; basically a grand slam try.

[semeai]

gnasher, on 2011-July-14, 09:11, said:

He's the one who's unlimited. Perhaps a more accurate wording would be "needs help in ♣ for grand, provided that all the keycards are present".

Auctions aren't about control, they're about exchanging information.

I'm with you on auctions being about exchanging information, but not really during asking bids like keycard. Of course there's some exchange of information when the keycard-asker bids something like 5NT, guaranteeing all keys, but without a hand that can just bid the grand from there, keycard-responder's bids are constrained to answer the question.

Do you have the rule that when the holder of 3 or 4 keycards bids on after a signoff, he may assume responder has the other 2 or 1 keycards (plus the queen of trump?), and then it becomes as if he had been the one bidding keycard, or something similar? Or are your keycard auctions different from mine and do allow give-and-take instead of just the various asks?

To be cute, because I can't resist, it sounds as if here you've decided the unlimited hand has "control," even if the other hand bid keycard.

[gnasher]

semeai, on 2011-July-14, 09:38, said:

I'm with you on auctions being about exchanging information, but not really during asking bids like keycard. Of course there's some exchange of information when the keycard-asker bids something like 5NT, guaranteeing all keys, but without a hand that can just bid the grand from there, keycard-responder's bids are constrained to answer the question.

Do you have the rule that when the holder of 3 or 4 keycards bids on after a signoff, he may assume responder has the other 2 or 1 keycards (plus the queen of trump?), and then it becomes as if he had been the one bidding keycard, or something similar? Or are your keycard auctions different from mine and do allow give-and-take instead of just the various asks?

I just play common sense. In this sequence, the auction from 3NT went:
Opener: I have only mild slam interest.
Responder: Even so, I think we may still have a slam on, and I have <whatever 4♣ showed>.
Opener: I think the best way to progress the auction is for you to tell me how many keycards you have.
Responder: One or four.
Opener: If you have only one keycard, we don't have a slam.
Responder: I have four keycards; if we have all the keycards we may have a grand slam. I have <whatever 6♣ showed>. What do you think about a grand slam?

Quote

To be cute, because I can't resist, it sounds as if here you've decided the unlimited hand has "control," even if the other hand bid keycard.

You think that when I said "auctions aren't about control", I meant "auctions are about control"?

[Phil]

Obviously bidding on shows 4 (or 3 the way most of the world plays).

This auction is probably covered in Kantar's book on RKB. He goes into more detail that you can imagine on sequences like this.

I would guess over 5♠:

5N = Trump Queen - side Kings unknown. If opener wants to know, he can bid 6x
6x = Lowest King, no trump Q.
6♠ = None of the above.

[semeai]

gnasher, on 2011-July-14, 10:00, said:

I just play common sense. In this sequence, the auction from 3NT went:
Opener: I have only mild slam interest.
Responder: Even so, I think we may still have a slam on, and I have <whatever 4♣ showed>.
Opener: I think the best way to progress the auction is for you to tell me how many keycards you have.
Responder: One or four.
Opener: If you have only one keycard, we don't have a slam.
Responder: I have four keycards; if we have all the keycards we may have a grand slam. I have <whatever 6♣ showed>. What do you think about a grand slam?

I'm happy with all you've written, but I'm confused with your meaning for 6♣ (i.e. the <whatever 6♣ showed> part). Why was it asking about club help (added: aka showing doubt about clubs) instead of showing ♣K (added: aka asking about how partner feels now that we're known to have ♣K)?

What does (spades agreed, e.g. 1S-2H;3C-3S) ... 4N-5D;6C mean for you?

How about (same) ... 4N-5D;5H-6C or ... 4N-5D;5N-6C?

How did you decide what 6♣ meant in the auction at hand?

Quote

You think that when I said "auctions aren't about control", I meant "auctions are about control"?

No, this is why it was "cute." Sorry, I should have resisted. (You seemed to suggest that the meaning of 6♣ depended on whether the player bidding it was unlimited, in essence deciding that hand had some inherent "control" to be the one asking for help in suits instead of showing something in suits.)

Added: Next we should argue about the meaning of the word "about."

[gnasher]

semeai, on 2011-July-14, 10:12, said:

I'm happy with all you've written, but I'm confused with your meaning for 6♣ (i.e. the <whatever 6♣ showed> part). Why was it asking about club help (added: aka showing doubt about clubs) instead of showing ♣K (added: aka asking about how partner feels now that we're known to have ♣K)?

Sorry, I'd misunderstood - I thought we were still talking about responder's right to take control, ie your question "How did the responder to keycard suddenly gain control of the auction?"

Regarding the exact meaning of 6♣: I'd normally play this type of bid as a response to the queen ask (but also saying that a grand slam is a possibility). That is, it would show ♠Q, ♣A, and grand-slam aspirations. In fact, that's what I said it was in my first post in this thread, before I'd thought aboiut it properly.

However, this auction is unusual, in that the keycard bidder is limited, and the keycard responder knows most about what level we should be playing at. Therefore it makes sense for responder's bids to be consultative rather than merely replying to a question that wasn't even asked. I think 6♣ should show something like KQ Axx Axx AQxxx, ie a hand where opener's club holding is critical. I'm not saying that I would assume that at the table - it would depend on who I was playing with.

Another good reason for this interpretation is that it's actually impossible that responder has four key-cards, the queen of trumps, and ♣K, and still be uncertain of the right level - he would have had a grand-slam drive after the 4NT bid.

Quote

What does (spades agreed, e.g. 1S-2H;3C-3S) ... 4N-5D;6C mean for you?

Depending on the partnership, I usually play it as one of:
- not discussed
- asking for third-round club control
- asking for a useful club holding in context

Quote

How about (same) ... 4N-5D;5H-6C

The same as everybody else - ♠Q and ♣K.

Quote

or ... 4N-5D;5N-6C?

The king of clubs, usually.

Quote

How did you decide what 6♣ meant in the auction at hand?

See above.

I'm not sure that I'm the best person to be discussing high-level Keycard auctions. I seem to be dealt fewer Keycard hands than most people, and I've never spent much time thinking about the meanings of sequences.

[cloa513]

Why did his partner even ask whether its four or one key cards- its got to be four from the prior bidding? 6♣ has to be all four keycards plus rediculous length in clubs 7clubs/4spades with only the A♣ not AK♣ otherwise 7♠ has to be solid anyway.