[benlessard]

Q trumps /side king ask --vs scan

If S are trumps and your asking for the QS at 4C. Some like to play return to trumps = no Q

for them its something like

4D = Q but no KH (may have KD) ----4H is asking for that card----4S is soff
4H= Q+KH (denies KD) ---- 4S is soff and 4Nt is asking for K clubs
4S = no Q but may have 1 or 2 red K.
4Nt = Q+2K (no k of clubs)
let say rest is Q+3K


scanning method

4D= no Q (4H ask for KH)
4H = Q but no KH
4S = Q +KH but no KD
4Nt = Q + KH +KD no KC
rest is Q+3K


If Q+KKK = same thing
Q+KH+KD =same thing
Q+KH = same thing

The difference come when Q+KD or without the Q trumps
its these sequences that are different
4C-4D
4H-??

Q+KD
method 1 4D-4H ask KD

4S = no KD ---4Nt is asking for KC
4Nt KD but no K of clubs

it allow you to stop at 4S if Q but no red K

vs

4C--4H
here
4S soff 4NT asking for KD

so your not able to stop at 4S if Q+no red kings

The advantage of scanning come each time opener doesnt have the Q you can ask for the K of H and sign off at 4S.

scanning allow you to safely ask for the KH when missing the trumps Q.

It seems return to 4S when no Q 1 is best for frequency reasons anything wrong with my analysis ?


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If your one or 2 bid below the trumps suits

4D/4H askign for Q trumps both method give same results


If your 4 or + steps below (only happen for efficient relay structure with some suits) then scan is superior.

[JLOGIC]

Cool story bro

[benlessard]

Why the sarcasm ? I know my explanation could be clearer I admit i was a bit lazy. Do me a favor instead and tell me what are your specific kings agreements if you ask for keycard a couple steps before game. Lets say you bid 4C for keycard in clubs and partner respond 4D 1/4, 4H is Q ask what are your responses ? Thanks

[BunnyGo]

 benlessard, on 2011-May-30, 01:12, said:

I know my explanation could be clearer I admit i was a bit lazy.

I honestly couldn't get through your post. I tried three times. All three times I resisted the urge to respond sarcastically.

[Mbodell]

I have the ability to keycard below game and it has even happened a few times. That said, I'm not sure that we've discussed what game means in all of the various permutations of asking and what not. I'd generally take game as not an ask but a signoff and take a game bid by responder as denying anything. So over 4♣(k/c)-4♦(1/4)-4♥(Q ask) then:

4♠ - I have the ♣Q and the ♠K
4nt - I have the ♣Q and the ♥K but not the ♠K
5♣ - I do not have the ♣Q
5♦ - I have the ♣Q and the ♦K but not the ♠K or the ♥K.

For your example of 4♣ being the Q ask for Spades trump then I'd give the responses similarly:

4♦ - I have the ♠Q and the ♦K
4♥ - I have the ♠Q and the ♥K but not the ♦K
4♠ - I do not have the ♠Q
4nt - I have the ♠Q and the ♣K but not the ♦K or the ♥K

So in general the trump suit would mean not the Q and nt is the K cue for the asking bid suit/the suit that is highest to show.

There may be more efficient systems, but this is pretty easy and in a lot of the situations where I can key card below game are in the context of a strong club system with relay positives where the asker choose to key card, and could have denial cue bid if the primary care was the location of secondary honors, so key carding is likely to be good enough as is. Also, when we are Q asking below game, we usually are already ahead of the field, so super optimal encoding space is not the priority.

[benlessard]

Sorry,

ok if you have no clue about for spiral scan/ (SScan)please read

http://www.bridgeguy...SpiralScan.html

Assume cuebidding phase is over (or you are not cuebidding) and responder is able to keycard in clubs at 4C. Opener respond 4D 1or4. Responder bid 4H ask for the Q♣. Now what is the optimal set of responses and why ? Is it different if your are one or more step below ?

The important cards after the Q of clubs are KS,KH,KD (in that order for the example).


In SScan

4C--4D
4H (ask for QC)---???

4S no
4Nt yes but no KS
5C yes+KS but no KD
5D and higher = Q+KS+KD or lets says any 2 K

The other popular method is cheapest K ask. The responses are going to look like.

4C--4D
4H (QC?)---

5C return in trumps suit = no Q
4Nt = Q + K♠ (4Nt show the K rather than 4S)
4S = Q + no K♠ (here 4S denies) it allow a 4Nt to aks for another K
5D and higher will show the Q plus 2 kings

If we compare both method in most cases there is no differences. Q+KK or Q+KS both system work with the same efficency.

Specific K work better than the Sscan is when its

Q but no KS

4C--4D
4H--4S (Q♣ no K♠)

here responder can bid 4Nt to ask for others K without bypassing the safety level of 5C.

While if you play scan its not possible.

4C--4D
4H--4NT (Q♣ no K♠)

However Sscan work better when you dont have the Q♣

4C--4D
4H--4S (i dont have the Q)

it allowed responder to bid 4Nt to aks for others K. But the case where opener doesnt have the Qs are less frequent(i think) and less important since often your going to Soff (missing 1 keyc and the Q of trumps for example) .

I think what it mean is that if your 3 step under the game or safety contract you should play that return in trump suit denies the Q.

The other case where you are 1 or 2 step below both method give the same result its easy to compare.

If you are more than 3 steps returning to trumps suit without the Q waste too much space and is less efficient (this i know for sure).

Hope its clear enough.

[benlessard]

Quote

4nt - I have the ♠Q and the ♣K but not the ♦K or the ♥K

This is a case where you may go overboard. Also what do you do if you have the Q but no side kings (you had 4 keycards for example ?)

[Mbodell]

 benlessard, on 2011-May-30, 04:33, said:

This is a case where you may go overboard. Also what do you do if you have the Q but no side kings (you had 4 keycards for example ?)

If you go overboard it is askers fault (why are you asking for Q after a key card response below game when the 5 level isn't safe when partner has the Q?!). The next bid is Q and no K so the next level of the asking suit. You can switch nt and the asking suit so nt always means yes and nothing else and the next level of the asking suit means that K alone but that restricts some of your asks (since in general you aren't going to make as many asks over a response that denies all K).

[mgoetze]

I can't be bothered to try and read all the stuff benlessard is writing but in one partnership I play spiral scan with the exception that the cheapest bid in trump denies the queen and other bids are one step cheaper accordingly.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I've read a few posts over the years on Spiral-Scan where example hands have been given.
In each case so far, I can reach the grand with regular RKC, trump Q-ask, Specific K-ask(s) or Third Rnd Ctrl-ask.
Someone had said Spiral Scan is "easy to remember " ... I must be "gray matter challanged" because it looks complicated.

I was then told:
" You don't "remember" Spiral Scan. You figure out the proper bids from
both sides of the table, by remembering and applying general rules."

[cherdano]

 benlessard, on 2011-May-30, 01:12, said:

I know my explanation could be clearer I admit i was a bit lazy.

If you are too lazy to write clearly I am too lazy to read it. Nothing against you, I apply this rule to any author, and any genre.

[benlessard]

[quote] I can't be bothered to try and read all the stuff benlessard is writing but in one partnership I play spiral scan with the exception that the cheapest bid in trump denies the queen and other bids are one step cheaper accordingly. [quote]

That is optimal i think, if S is trumps and you ask for the Q at 4C/4D/4H/5C/5D/5H a return to 4S/5S should denied the Q if you ask for the Q lower or at 4Nt (far for trumps suit) than the no Q should be the next bid to allow asking for other kings.

[FrancesHinden]

Funnily enough we've just been discussing this in one partnership where we are (probably) about to switch from spiral to specific asks.
The two conclusions we came to are
(i) the exact order of responses, and the asks, should vary depending on exactly how many steps are available between responder's call, 5 trump suit and 6 trump suit, and which, if any, side suits have been shown by each side.

[this sounds extreme, but even in 'normal' spiral the order of the side suit kings depends on the auction so far]

(ii) whether spiral or asking for KQ of specific suits is better depends on the auction so far. If responder has shown a good side suit, it's potentially more useful to ask for the Q of that suit directly than to have to spiral through the 3 missing kings first.

(iii) We aren't prepared to have that many agreements for auctions that come up rarely to start with, when in practice on many hands simply saying 'I am interested in your side suit cards' is good enough to get to the right contract.

FWIW the proposed new method is:
-after the queen ask, bid step 1 with the queen; bid the trump suit without the queen; anything else shows the q+KQ of the suit bid (and you only do this in a suit where this should be useful, bearing the level in mind)
-after the response to the q ask, bid the original keycard ask suit (e.g. 5NT if 4NT was RKCB) to ask for specific kings; bid a new suit to ask for second/third round control of the suit.

[Zelandakh]

I think I am with Don on this. It may not be 100% optimal but is there really anything wrong with, for example

(after 4D = 1 or 4) and clubs trumps
4H = Q ask
... 4S = CQ and SK
... 4N = CQ and extras but no king
... 5C = no CQ
... 5D = CQ and DK
... 5H = CQ and HK
4S = K ask (we have the CQ or equivalent)
... 4N = SK
... 5C = no king
... 5D/5H = that king
4N = SSA for spades
5C = sign-off opposite 1
5D/5H = SSA
?

As long as you have a specific king ask it is always more efficient to have returning to the trump suit deny the trump queen. If partner does not care if you have it or not they can just bypass the Q ask and move directly to king asks or SSAs. I think I like Frances' method too but would like to try it a time or 50 before I decided if I thought it was worth switching to. Out of interest Frances, why do you use 5NT for specific kings rather than the next non-trump step? Surely the latter would be more efficient?