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Takeout X or not?

Poll: Takeout X or not? (26 member(s) have cast votes)

What's your bid?

  1. X (takeout) (19 votes [73.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 73.08%

  2. Pass (7 votes [26.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.92%

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#1 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 10:24

IMPs, NV. vs. NV., partner deals:

P* - (1H):

*: P denies balanced 11+ or most distributional 10

You hold:

AT76
xx
AQ9x
xxx

1) Do you P or X?
2) Does vulnerability affect your choice?

3) If you P, would you bid differently with:

AT98
xx
AQT9
T98
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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 11:12

This is a better question than I thought at first glance.

Even though in your style pard is limited to a flat ten or an unbalanced 9, it seems we should attempt to compete for a part-score with support for the top suit.

However, if playing against a pair who have a much better structure after 1MX than they would have otherwise ---such as transfers and mini-splinters, in addition to Jordan ---there might be something to be said for pass.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 11:23

Pass.

On the second one I would double at matchpoints.
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#4 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 11:48

Pass, I think we could enter later if neccessary, there's no need to force it now.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 12:03

X for me, nice that it's nv.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#6 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 12:17

X. It's safer now than later IMO, and it's not as though we are giving away any 2 way finesses. Also, muddy the waters as much as possible. Partner shouldn't hang you, as you should feel more free to take lighter actions opposite a passed hand.
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#7 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 12:59

 CSGibson, on 2011-April-27, 12:17, said:

X. It's safer now than later IMO, and it's not as though we are giving away any 2 way finesses. Also, muddy the waters as much as possible. Partner shouldn't hang you, as you should feel more free to take lighter actions opposite a passed hand.


Partner will bid less when you promise less. What you promise is a matter for partnership agreement. What our agreement should be is what we're discussing here.

I'm starting to get the sense that...

overcalls-need promise less as partner should not hang you unless he has a fit. We then have law protection.

dbls-should promise about what they would or a smidge more because doubler is hopeful of a fit, but will frequently catch a poor dummy (in terms of high cards)

NT overcalls-should be stronger than opposite an UPH because no fit is expected
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 13:28

 straube, on 2011-April-27, 12:59, said:

Partner will bid less when you promise less. What you promise is a matter for partnership agreement. What our agreement should be is what we're discussing here.

I'm starting to get the sense that...

overcalls-need promise less as partner should not hang you unless he has a fit. We then have law protection.

dbls-should promise about what they would or a smidge more because doubler is hopeful of a fit, but will frequently catch a poor dummy (in terms of high cards)

NT overcalls-should be stronger than opposite an UPH because no fit is expected


IMO:

Overcalls should be the same and a passed-hand partner should bid what she would have bid if unpassed in the advance position.

Doubles should be the same, and a passed-hand partner should respond as normal.

1NT overcalls should be in the same range. They win the race to 1NT, and allow partner to decide whether 1NT or a suit contract is appropriate.

However, 2NT overcalls vs a 2nd-seat weak two should be jacked up a bit...no froggy 15's.
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#9 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 13:45

 straube, on 2011-April-27, 12:59, said:

Partner will bid less when you promise less. What you promise is a matter for partnership agreement. What our agreement should be is what we're discussing here.

I'm starting to get the sense that...

overcalls-need promise less as partner should not hang you unless he has a fit. We then have law protection.

dbls-should promise about what they would or a smidge more because doubler is hopeful of a fit, but will frequently catch a poor dummy (in terms of high cards)

NT overcalls-should be stronger than opposite an UPH because no fit is expected


Disagree -- I am with csgibson here.

1) There's no need to go ultra conservative just because pard is a PH (including NT overcalls).

2) Acting now has to be safer than coming on over (1H) - (2H) and they may very well lock us out with (1H) - (3H) (weak).

3) There's no reason for PH to bid less under the assumption that the X is any different than over a UPH. The possibility of a "light takeout X" exists regardless of whether it was made opposite a PH or not.
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#10 User is offline   AlexJonson 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 13:58

Double.

Pushing opps and taking them off at the three level is one of the other reasons for playing IMPs,
after bidding low percentage games.
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#11 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 15:04

 akhare, on 2011-April-27, 13:45, said:

Disagree -- I am with csgibson here.

1) There's no need to go ultra conservative just because pard is a PH (including NT overcalls).

2) Acting now has to be safer than coming on over (1H) - (2H) and they may very well lock us out with (1H) - (3H) (weak).

3) There's no reason for PH to bid less under the assumption that the X is any different than over a UPH. The possibility of a "light takeout X" exists regardless of whether it was made opposite a PH or not.


Well why not make a takeout double with Axxx xx Axxx xxx? I could use the same sort of reasoning to defend this that you're using here. Perhaps we have a partial or sacrifice in 2S. It's certainly safer to come in now with this hand than balanced with double over 2H. OTOH, it's just not safe or winning to double on such a light hand.

I think we need to be able to lose on some hands so that we can win on others. We don't open every hand because we want some high cards to support partner in fit-finding. Having a standard for a takeout double works the same way.

I'm not sure what the minimum strength ought to be for a takeout double opposite a passed hand, but the lower we extend the range, the less partner will be able to compete.
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#12 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 15:42

I'd double.

Obviously you need to have some agreement about playing strength for doubles. If you double really light all the time, partner needs to know not to compete aggressively if the opponents raise (i.e. what does partner need to bid 3m after 1-X-2?) and not to push for game on mediocre hands. So I wouldn't advocate doubling on Axxx xx Axxx xxx for example (too often partner will bid three-over-two or three-over-three and get a bad result).

There are a few factors on this hand which I think are important though. First, partner being a passed hand means he won't bid game expecting to make it very often. This removes one of the risk factors of a light double. Second, we are NV at IMP scoring, so opponents will rarely double our partial on marginal hands (even if it's right for them to do so). Third, we have the master suit (spades) so can often play the hand at a lower level.

I agree that this hand is fairly marginal and would not argue if partner passed. I would pass if we were vulnerable, or if my black suits were reversed (so three small in spades and ATxx in club).
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#13 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 16:31

X, but pass has merit too.

What I don't do, is pass and back in later. I will not force us to 2+
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#14 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 18:19

Wasn't this exact hand posted in some other thread? Or am I going completely crazy... I coulda sworn I commented on this lol
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#15 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 18:29

 JLOGIC, on 2011-April-27, 18:19, said:

Wasn't this exact hand posted in some other thread? Or am I going completely crazy...


Why can't it be both?
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#16 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 21:49

 JLOGIC, on 2011-April-27, 18:19, said:

Wasn't this exact hand posted in some other thread? Or am I going completely crazy... I coulda sworn I commented on this lol

Since han replied to the other thread, perhaps the question can be reformulated as:

Is (han)P == (ha)NP?

Sorry, foobar couldn't resist the terrible pun :D...
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#17 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 22:27

Not so much a "would you takeout double here?" as
How much of our response structure is changed
to stay safe with eg. TOD with 10 and partner 4hcp;
invite with what - now that the responder
fears to show 7? 9? 12? opposite a 10.
If 10 is in, what does a TOD 17 do?
Quits response has a higher top; Invite higher; GF higher;
Show the scheme you use if this 10 is in.
I'm curious to see that.
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#18 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 22:46

JLOGIC is going crazy!

http://www.bridgebas...ble-subminimum/

not even close to the same hand!!
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#19 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2011-April-28, 01:07

I think it mainly depends on partnership understandings and style. In my case I would pass, not because I think that it is not worth it, but my partner would expect just a bit better, and she will compete accordingly - which usually ends in -50 instead of +50. If we were NV vs V she would have lower expectations and I would X freely. If partner doesn't have competitive values it will only help the ops.
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#20 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-April-28, 05:27

I've been getting good results from dbling these hands. The reason is you get to compete very often and, since pard is a passed hand, he won't have the points to go berzerk over your dbl.

So yeah, dbl all of them.
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