[jillybean]

NV vs V IMP

K852, AKQJ5, K, K75

Partner opens in 2nd seat

(P) 1♦ (P) 1♥
(2♠) P (P) ?

If you bid 3♠, partner bids 4♥ , do you
make another move?

[georgeac]

4nt now, then what? If partner shows the other Aces I bid 7♥, otherwise just 6♥

[JLOGIC]

I prefer double rather than 3S. This is a very complex hand and obviously a takeout double is unusual with this shape, but so is 3S which is typically with diamond support or 1 suited in hearts. Over double at least if partner bids 3H I'll have learned partner has 3 hearts at a lower level, and if he bids 2N I will learn that my SK is not so horrible (we can't just assume LHO has the AQ of spades given that he is a passed hand...that said he is r/w).

I honestly want to go really low on this hand and double and just bid 3N over 3m. There are a lot of warning signs; misfit, spade length, SK with spade bidder on our left, stiff king in partner's suit is bad (compared to Kx or whatever).

Another plan would be to double and bid 3H showing a forcing 1 suiter in hearts, at least we'll get some kind of information out of that.

BTW if you have any questions of if/when 4N should be quantitative in situations like this I think that is good, but would say if you are playing with a B/I they will take 4N as keycard except for like 1n-4N and that is a fine way to play rather than always having doubt about what your 4N bids mean, so I wouldn't get into it.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand. I was playing with an expert, but not regular partner.

---

I made the awful 4♥ bid , thinking that NT wasn't an option and this was the best spot. Partner said they would have bid 4♥/3♠.

With my regular partner after P 1♦ P 1♥ 2♠ P P X P 4♥ P 4♠ would be keycard (sorry Han) and 4N a ♠ cue. We've obviously lost the ability to bid a Q4N, is Q4N important in this type of auction?

[JLOGIC]

When you have a major suit fit you don't need a quantitative 4N.

Your partner forgot to raise you to 3H, that is an automatic bid that would have made life easy. Over 4H (after 3S-4H) I'm not sure if you're supposed to bid again, you are in danger of ace of spades spade ruff, and even if that doesn't happen you have a lot of losers. That said, you do have 19 HCP and partner might have the SA which helps a lot.

[jillybean]

P 1♦ P 1♥
2♠ P P X
P 2N/3♣/3♦ P 4N I would play as quantitative.

[Phil]

3♥ is clear. Then getting to slam is routine. If you double, I think partner will come alive with 3♠ (I hope so).

I've borrowed Justin's advice many times, "allow yourself to be pushed one level higher". That seems to apply here (you have an auto 2♥ call over 1♠, take the push to 3♥ over 2♠ but 4♥ over 3♠ is too much).

[cherdano]

Phil, on 2011-January-16, 13:13, said:

I've borrowed Justin's advice many times, "allow yourself to be pushed one level higher". That seems to apply here (you have an auto 2♥ call over 1♠, take the push to 3♥ over 2♠ but 4♥ over 3♠ is too much).

I disagree with this advice. You don't bid 3♥ here with any hand that would have a 2♥ bid over 1♠. (And any hand with 4 hearts is an automatic 2♥ bid over 1♠ - ok, maybe not with KQTJ xxxx in the majors, but otherwise...)
I also doubt that this advice accurately quotes Justin.

[JLOGIC]

I would in fact bid 3H with almost all hands that have 4 hearts. The only time I wouldn't would be with very strong spades and even then only if I had a min AND defensive values. like KJTx Jxxx KQx Qx should pass obviously but it has to be really extreme. But Phil got my advice right.

Passing with 4 hearts does not work imo, partner doesn't know you have 4 hearts later when you bid hearts and will assume you have 3. Yes you can be correcting to 4 hearts, but it can hurt partner a lot. For instance, 1D p 1H 2S p 3S 5D is a possible auction to me. I wouldn't be happy if I had 4 hearts.

Also 2S being passed out is probably not great (depends on our hand). Both of these factors are largely diminished if we have heavy spade values though which is why I would pass SOMETIMES with that.

If I had a hand I would have jumped to 3H with, I would bid 4H. If I have a hand that would have forced to game, I would bid 3S. I think this is all fine/necessary.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 3S sounds right
#2 Sure, over 4H, you have to make another move, you have 30+ HCP on your axis,
so selling out, is not an option, it is either 4NT or 5H a quantitative invite,
if you reg. open light, 5H sounds ok.

With kind regards
Marlowe