[benlessard]

In my new structure (with transfers and relays) ive decided to put all the 2 suiters
24--[5431]
12 [5422]
and 6421 with 6 in a minors. Exiting before 3nt

The balanced hands, one suited minors, 5-5 and hands with voids im ok.

But the only placed remaining for the Majors single suited is 3D,3H,3S (2 out of 3), and the 4 level.

Facing a weak nt (10-14,12-15) should i play transfers (3D for H 3H for S) or not ?

Im fairly sure the step gained is more important than the rightsiding (the long M is going to be stronger but the weak nt hand going to be undisclosed by the bidding) .

Should it be always slammish or aiming at 3Nt with 6-2,6-3 fit is a target worth looking for ? l

Im not sure if aiming for 3Nt when having a 6-2 fit is a small target. It seems that balanced 6 carder facing no ruffing power play better in 3Nt fairly often to my taste.

Any ideas about continuations after a 3 level slammish transfers ?

[straube]

1. Curious as to how you're fitting in all of the 5431s and 5422s below 3N. What's your full structure?

2. Facing a weak nt, no opinion as to whether or not to transfer. My only thought is that if you plan to conceal responder's distribution, then you might give more weight to having responder name his suit.

3. I wouldn't use bidding space for describing a 6-card major and then trying to get to 3N.

4. Is your 1N-3H/3S meant to be the starting place for all slam tries or just the balanced tries? I like self-splinters (e.g. 1N-2D, 4C=long hearts, short club)
If only balanced tries, it seems an infrequent use for the bid.

[benlessard]

Here is a quick sample.

How to understand the system.
Highly recommended to read this before reading the rest unless you have a photographic memory.

2 suiter with a M and a m
Its a symmetric setup.

for RR (responder)
2S is always a reverser showing 5 or 6 m and only 4M
2Nt is always a clubs transfers (however sometimes its not available and youll need to bid 3H/3S/3Nt to show clubs)
3C is always a D transfers
3D is never a 5431, its 55 or 64 ----- (if no minor transfer has been done its show primary clubs)
3H is always stiff in the lower unbid suit
3S is always stiff in the higher unbid suit.
3Nt is often 5422 or stiff in the lower unbid suit

examples

1453
you will need reverser (only 4M), D transfers and show the stiff in the higher unbid suit.

1N --- 2D H transfer
2H --- 2S reverser
2Nt --- 3C D transfer
3D --- 3S High shortage = 1453


5341
1Nt --- 2H S transfers
2S --- 3C D tranfers (no reverser has been done the 2S bid was bid by OO)
3D --- 3H low shortage = 5341

4225,4315,4135

1Nt --- 2S reverser with spades (here you cannot transfer to S and bid 2S so you have to bid 2S directly)
2Nt --- ???

here 3C is a D transfers, 3D is always 55 or 64. So the clubs transfers is bypassed and you bid 3 level directly

3H low shortage 4315
3S H shortage 4135
3Nt 4225


5215,5512 no reverser, Spades, 5-5 , high or low shortage

1Nt --- 2H Spades no reverser
2S --- 2Nt clubs transfer
3C --- 3D 55 note that if you bypass 3D its would show a 5431,6421.
3H --- 3S high stiff = 5125
--- 3Nt low stiff = 5215

4216,4126

1Nt --- 2S spades REV
2Nt --- 3D 64 because of the REV its 64 and not 5/5
3H --- 3S high stiff = 4126
--- 3Nt low stiff = 4216

2416,1426

1NT --- 2D H transfer
2H --- 2S REV
2Nt --- 3D 64 because of the REV its 6/4 and not 5/5
3H --- 3S high stiff = 4126
--- 3Nt low stiff = 4216


Hands that doesnt fit below 3Nt (they will be in 4C,4D)

6421 with 6M (because 3D will show a 55 not a 6-4)

6421 with 6D+4M. (because after the D transfer you cannot bid 3D)

Hands with voids. 5530,6430, 5440, 6520
---------------------------------------------

Single suiter with long M are transfers followed by 3H+ ive decided that single suiter M + a Stiff are too valuable and i show the 3 stiff and the blanced 6322 slammish at 3H/3S/3NT/4C. Because of that i can no longer show all the 54 in M. But since i needed a romex stayman stayman plus showing M+M hands was a bit redundant anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hands with both majors are in modified romex stayman

1Nt-----3C
im not showing any shapes here just 5S+4H+?? , 5H+4S+ ?? 55??.

---------------------------------------------------------------
hands with D + C are in

1Nt-----2C
2R------3d+

3D= ??64
3H = 3154
3S = 1354
3Nt = 2254

hands with clubs and D are direct after 1Nt----???
3D= ??55
3H = 3145
3S = 1345
3Nt = to play not 2245 (a hand that i cant describe)

single suiter in clubs (inv or better) and exception hands 4D+6C is in 1NT---2Nt

single suiter in D inv or better is

1NT-----2C
2R------3C

Note that if opener make a super accept/relay break at one point most hand will be "exited" at 3S/3NT/4C

[straube]

Very nice. Your structure has seemed to evolve quite a bit from your last NT post.

How do you handle the invitational hands...with or without majors?

I want to quibble with a few things...

1. You're trying to relay out as many shapes as possible when you might do better to ask opener if he has a fit and then react to it. For example, at another table it might go 1N-2C, 2H-4C and now opener hasn't the foggiest what shape responder has, but he knows that there is a fit and that club cards should be devalued. In a sense this sequence shows a large variety of patterns.

.....Or similarly, if 1N-3D shows diamond shortness and at least three cards in each major, then 3D represents all of the following shapes...
.....4-4-0-5
.....4-4-1-4
.....3-4-1-5
.....4-3-1-5
.....3-3-1-6
.....3-3-0-7

Opener can bid 4-card majors up the line. An auction might go...
1N-3D, 3S-3N
so now opener can infer...
.....3-4-1-5
.....3-3-1-6
.....3-3-0-7

Also note that if opener had had a 5-card major, he could jump to game directly
1N-3D, 4H

or could use an artificial 4C to say he really liked his hand.

1N-3D, 4C-4D, 5C (I really like my hand for clubs)
1N-3D, 4C-4D, 4M (I really like my hand for the major)

Of course, either player can use the 4C convention this way....

1N-3D, 3H-4C, 4D-4H (We have a heart fit and I have extra)

1N-3D, 3S-4C, 4D-5C (We don't have a spade fit, but I have extra with long clubs)

All of this going to demonstrate that you don't have to have a sequence to show each possible pattern. You can see if you have a fit, and then show shortness and get a reaction OR you can show shortness, see if you have a fit, and then get a reaction.

2. I think you should sacrifice slammish 5422s and treat them as balanced.

3. I think you need to be abe to show 5431,5413,4531,4513

4. Three-suited hands with voids need to be shown at the 3-level and not the 4-level. Reserve the 4-level for fit-showing or hands with 6-card suits (hopefully
a 6-card major). My structure uses the 4-level for 6M or certain 6m4 hands.

[benlessard]

Quote

1. You're trying to relay out as many shapes as possible when you might do better to ask opener if he has a fit and then react to it. For example, at another table it might go 1N-2C, 2H-4C and now opener hasn't the foggiest what shape responder has, but he knows that there is a fit and that club cards should be devalued. In a sense this sequence shows a large variety of patterns.

Mostly agree. Opener will still be able to super accect & break relay but many times complete shape is almost necessary. IMO the difference between a 4144 and a 4135 is significant when your thinking about 5 or 6. I though about the idea for 3D short D and 43 or 44 in both majors (since i needed a kind of puppet stayman anyway) but finally discard it. Ill think about it further more.

We are playing a wide ranging nt 10-14 (12-15). Its something that pay so much that its not going to change for a long time. However this need a special structure that focus on inv hands.

1Nt-----2C is almost a puppet to 2D (D any strenght or INV any shape)
???

2H = minimum with 4-5 H
2D = the rest
2S + (not in use but could be max with D super-accept)

1Nt-----2C
2D------???

2H inv with 5+ H
2S inv with 4+ S (could be both M)
2Nt inv with no M (or with 4H, partner doesnt have 4H or hes maxi)

I really hate not having a way to differentiate between inv with 4S and inv with 5S but facing an unpassed hand you cannot keep 1Nt---2S just for an invite.

Quote

2. I think you should sacrifice slammish 5422s and treat them as balanced.

My hope is that these hands make 5m better then 3Nt more often than we think. I also use the spot for mild slammish 6421. So that when i show a 6421 in the regular way its really slammish. Also I dont have a balanced (4432,4333,5332) quantitative slam try (nor range check) below 3Nt and i dont like treating 5422 as a single suiter.

Quote

3. I think you need to be abe to show 5431,5413,4531,4513

I would like too but since ive got no more space left and all is working. I also need a romex stayman anyway so its a bit redundant to have a way to show 53/54 not slammish and 1 way for slammish. Also if no fit in the M is found slam is unlikely anyway (6m in the 5-3 fit). Ill sometimes missed 4M in 5-2 better than 3Nt. But im giving priority to the minors because its more easy to bypass 3Nt with M and its easier to make slam tries at the 5 level. While for minors bypassing 3Nt is a crucial decision and once that is done 5m and 6m comes quickly.

Anyway at this point every space is used and most thing make sense so ill let time do the job.

[straube]

benlessard said:

Opener will still be able to super accect & break relay but many times complete shape is almost necessary. IMO the difference between a 4144 and a 4135 is significant when your thinking about 5 or 6.

I agree, but let opener pick the strain and show his level of enthusiasm for it. Let responder make the final determination on level; if responder is only 4144, perhaps has has compensating values.

benlessard said:

We are playing a wide ranging nt 10-14 (12-15). Its something that pay so much that its not going to change for a long time. However this need a special structure that focus on inv hands.

I think you should devote more of your structure to invitational hands then. You devote less bidding space to them than I do and my structure was written for a 14-16 NT where slam is more likely and invitations less so.

benlessard said:

1Nt-----2C is almost a puppet to 2D (D any strenght or INV any shape)
???

2H = minimum with 4-5 H 
2D = the rest
2S + (not in use but could be max with D super-accept)

1Nt-----2C
2D------???

2H inv with 5+ H
2S inv with 4+ S (could be both M)
2Nt inv with no M (or with 4H, partner doesnt have 4H or hes maxi)

I really hate not having a way to differentiate between inv with 4S and inv with 5S but facing an unpassed hand you cannot keep 1Nt---2S just for an invite.

1N-2C as almost a puppet is extremely costly. You lose most of your 1N-2C, 2H continuations and apparently all of your 1N-2C, 2S continuations.

This is really why Klinger's structure had to fail. He had a lot of good ideas, but he wasn't able to show full pattern with 4M5m. For instance, his way of bidding 4S/5C etc was 1N-2N, 3C-3S; no idea what the rest of the pattern was. His way of showing m/m was 1N-2N, 3C-3D. I mean, that could be anything with a 5+m/4+m. It could be 1-3-4-5 or 3-0-6-4. I know your structure differentiates these patterns, but my point is that a Keri-type club limits what the overall structure can accomplish. Klinger sacrificed slam bidding for it and you seem to be sacrificing invitational bidding.

Btw, 2S does very well as a size ask.

5M4M31s are more important than 5422s. They have more slam potential and at least occasionally, it will be in the minor fragment...if opener knows about it.

[the hog]

straube, on Oct 26 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

snipped

This is really why Klinger's structure had to fail. He had a lot of good ideas, but he wasn't able to show full pattern with 4M5m. For instance, his way of bidding 4S/5C etc was 1N-2N, 3C-3S; no idea what the rest of the pattern was. His way of showing m/m was 1N-2N, 3C-3D. I mean, that could be anything with a 5+m/4+m. It could be 1-3-4-5 or 3-0-6-4.

snipped

Sorry but you really don't understand Keri at all. You are pulling one sequence in isolation out of the whole structure.For example, you have forgotten that the 3 suited responses to 1NT show a lot of the hands that you are stating cannot be shown by the specific sequence you mention. I think you need to read the book as a whole and not pull out isolated examples.

[straube]

The_Hog, on Oct 25 2009, 11:53 PM, said:

straube, on Oct 26 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

snipped

This is really why Klinger's structure had to fail.  He had a lot of good ideas, but he wasn't able to show full pattern with 4M5m.  For instance, his way of bidding 4S/5C etc was 1N-2N, 3C-3S; no idea what the rest of the pattern was.  His way of showing m/m was 1N-2N, 3C-3D.  I mean, that could be anything with a 5+m/4+m. It could be 1-3-4-5 or 3-0-6-4.  

snipped

Sorry but you really don't understand Keri at all. You are pulling one sequence in isolation out of the whole structure.For example, you have forgotten that the 3 suited responses to 1NT show a lot of the hands that you are stating cannot be shown by the specific sequence you mention. I think you need to read the book as a whole and not pull out isolated examples.

Klinger uses 3-level splinters which reduces some of the hand types possible (after showing the minor (2C or 2N) and then the major (3H or 3S), but the splinters are poorly organized. He splinters one under (so 1N-3C is a diamond splinter) and then he uses a cue of the splinter as showing a good working hand. Unfortunately, this "cue" is at the expense of fit-finding.

He specifically states that with 1-3-(45) that the correct bid isn't 3H (one under the splinter) but 1N-2N, 3C-3D showing both minors. 1N-3H has to promise four hearts. His club splinter is 1N-3S which has to guarantee 4-4-4-1 or 4-4-5-0. I.e. 3-4-5-1 has to use some other mechanism...which is 1N-2C, 2D-3H showing only the four hearts and five diamonds and not the fragment or shortness.

His splinters also don't account for the 5m43m1s because his splinters always guarantee four of the minor (excepting that the minor is short). He also can't splinter 6421s (though this is arguably not a bad thing)

I really enjoyed Klinger's book because I learned that there were other methods of showing four-card majors than Stayman. Splinters are one way and using Puppet Stayman is another. There are more.

However, Stayman gains bidding space over Keri in the following sense. After 1N-2C, 2M responder can splinter hands at the 4-level whenever he becomes aware of a fit. In a sense, this cuts the hands in half that he has to show.

What does he do with the other half? The half that must be shown when opener mentions the "wrong" major? We can use the 3-level (the 2-level is better used for invitational bids) to show these other patterns.

I therefore restricted Stayman's use to GI hands and those patterns that could not be splintered directly. Fortunately, there was just enough room.

I'd not had Klinger's splinters in mind when I wrote my last post. Thanks for reminding me. They do eliminate many of the hand types that are shown via 1N-2N, 3C-3M and 1N-2C, 2D-3M but if I remember correctly, 1N-2C, 2D-3H could show such things as 2-4-6-1, 1-4-5-3 or 2-4-5-2.