[gable]

Hi all,

I would like to play a relay bridge System.

I red notes and a book about three bridge systems (Ultimate Club, Symmetric Relay and TOSR) but I am not able to choose the best one.

Have U got any suggestion/comment ?

Thx in advance

Regards

G.

[hrothgar]

This is somewhat complicated because Symmetric Relay has a couple different meanings.

1. Symmetric Relay - the relay structure that Roy Kerr developed lo these many years ago

2. Symmetric Relay - a bidding system that used said relay structure

As I recall, TOSR uses something fairly close to the Symmetric Relay bidding structure. (I could be very wrong with this)

If you want to learn relay methods, I'd advise grafting a SIMPLE symmetric relay based structure onto a Precision type strong club opening. My MOSCITO notes have a simple structure thats quite easy to learn.

(From my perspective, the memory load required to effectively employ Ultimate Club is way to high to consider this as a starting point)

The numeric relay structure that the ICelander's use is another reasonable starting point.

[shevek]

Viking Club is okay but the relays are a bit complicated, tough to learn. Same issue with Ultimate Club, which peaked 30 years ago.

Antipodean symmetric relay is a good basis, though not a system. Kiwi Club, Moscito, Scamp (self plug) & TOSR all sprung from Roy Kerr's structure.
If you go with Moscito, there are many sub versions. The current Marston version is light years aways from the originals. Less natural, more complicated and - IMHO - not much of a step forward.

[rbforster]

If you want to play a reasonably easy relay system, use the modern transfer-oriented symmetric relay responses to 1♣ strong, and play natural openings besides 1♣ (rather than transfer openings). 5 card majors and 2/1 for the rest of the system is fine. You'll probably have some luck finding at least a few other people who also know this and might play it with you.

[akhare]

I would recommend picking a system with some variant of symmetric relays (classic symmetric, TOSR, Moscito 2001).

Viking, Ultimate and other home grown brews may claim to have a leg up the "relay efficiency factor", but symmetric towers above the rest where it really counts : mnenomic ease.

BTW, it probably makes sense to use the relays over a 1♣ opening only. If the rest of your system employs 5CM openings, you can potentially use a forcing NT to start your relays. However, IMO, it's better to use a GF 2♣ response for that purpose (the relays won't exactly be symmetric, but pretty close)...

[gwnn]

Google Sharko and symmetric relay. Very funny write-up. And a good system albeit you might want to devise a better non relay structure than everything NF

[nigel_k]

I played symmetric relay (the relay structure not the opening bid structure) for a number of years including internationally and highly recommend it. I don't know the ultimate club that well, but it is hard to even conceive of a relay structure being better than symmetric.

Symmetric relay works with strong club and either transfer openings and a minor oriented 1♠, or with Precision style 5 card majors and a catchall 1♦. You can play it just over the 1♣ opening but you'll probably want to use it everywhere.

The relays over 1♣ can benefit from some adjustments to maximize the chance of relayer, not responder, becoming declarer.

Let us know how you get on!

[the hog]

Before you decide to play a relay system, I think you should make a decision as to whether you ptrefer 4 or 5 card Ms.
If 4, look at Ultimate or moscito
If 5, look at the original symmetric relay. Ice Relay is another possibility, as is Viking Club.
My choice in the latter group would be symmetric played with a few tweaks.

[Cascade]

gwnn, on Aug 27 2009, 05:33 AM, said:

Google Sharko and symmetric relay. Very funny write-up. And a good system albeit you might want to devise a better non relay structure than everything NF

This is a good system

[Ant590]

When I learnt SR I learnt from a local player's homegrown notes. They were sufficient but required many Q&A sessions between us.

If I were to learn from scratch again I would start with Alan Truscott's Vanilla Symmetric Relay (see http://bridgewithdan.com/systems/), or "Symmetric" by Andrei Sharko (see http://www.geocities...rben47/bridge/). I'm not saying these systems are better than any other, but in terms of explaining the principles I've not seen anything better. (the latter is of publishable quality imho)

[the hog]

No please! Truscott's notes are very badly written. The full Symmetric system actually has been published.

[Ant590]

The_Hog, on Aug 27 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

The full Symmetric system actually has been published.

Oooh, by whom? Do you have an ISBN?

Is it different from the version on Gerben's page? I'm buying it tomorrow if it is.

[the hog]

It was the original version by Roy Kerr. I have a copy, but it is in Australia. I doubt you can get it now.

[akhare]

Ant590, on Aug 27 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 27 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

The full Symmetric system actually has been published.

Oooh, by whom? Do you have an ISBN?

Is it different from the version on Gerben's page? I'm buying it tomorrow if it is.

This is somewhat tangential, but the Symmetric system was also documented in the excellent B2SYM (Bridge2Symmetric) SW written by Kerr and co.

IMO, it's a terrific tool for practicing symmetric relays and you can easily roll your own versions too!!!

Unfortunately, it's no longer available for sale, but ping me if you are interested in the software...

[gable]

Thx all for your kind answers.

So my conclusions are:

1) I decide to play a 5th major bridge system.

2) Symmetric Relay (or TOSR) seems to be easier to be learnt and played than Ultimate Club (I found an italian book wrote by Giorgio Rivara (Octopus) where the ultimate club system has been revisited to be played in 5th major). So I think I will choose Symmetric Relay for starting.

The next question is:

How does symmetric Relay work in competion ?.

Anyone of you found any problems ?

Thx in advance

Kind Regards

G.

[Cascade]

gable, on Aug 31 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

How does symmetric Relay work in competion ?.

In relay auctions the normal standard is to play:

PASS = 1st step or relay

DBL or RDBL = 2nd step or penalties

There are some variations if the relay has not started:

1♣ (1♠) ...

PASS = weak
DBL = 1st step so whatever a normal 1♥ bid would have shown
1NT = 2nd step so whatever a normal 1♠ bid would have shown without the interference

in other words the relays are up one step. Sometimes you can claw these steps back:

1♣ (1♠) DBL (2♣) ...

PASS = relay
DBL = penalties

so that

1♣ (1♠) DBL (2♣) ...
PASS (PASS) ...

DBL = 1st step i.e. equivalent to the uncontested auction 1♣ 1♥; 1♠ 1NT
2♦ = 2nd step i.e. equivalent to the uncontested auction 1♣ 1♥; 1♠ 2♣

[the hog]

You need a lot of practise in competition so that the responses become automatic. Practice bidding for at least 4-5 hours a week in the early stages.

[nigel_k]

gable, on Aug 30 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

How does symmetric Relay work in competion ?.

Anyone of you found any problems ?

As Wayne said, in competition you use the same structure but may be up to three steps higher. When the interference forces you up four steps or more, the relays are off.

If they interfere directly over 1♣, I would play dbl is any 0-4, pass is any 5-8 and other bids are positive. So 1♣-(1♠)-1NT would be the first relay step. This means that a direct overcall of 2♣ or higher breaks the relay but a 1NT overcall does not.

After the 5-8 pass, dbl or other first step by opener is 19+ and initiates relay. After the 0-4 dbl there is no relay.

Other than that, just go on a step basis, e.g. 1♣-(P)-1♠-(2♥), pass by opener is relay then dbl by responder replaces the 2♣ bid (after a 1NT relay in an uninterrupted sequence) and 2♠ by responder replaces the 2♦ bid. So you are two steps higher.

There is no difficulty with this in theory but you should expect a couple of accidents before you get used to it.

I would also change the positive responses to 1♣ as follows:

1♥ any hand with spades except balanced
1♠ either balanced (4333 or 4432) or heart/diamond two suiter
1NT either single suited clubs or heart/club two suiter
2♣ either single suited diamonds, or minor 3 suiter
2♦ single suited hearts
2♥ and higher shows both minors

After 1♠ bid 2♣ next with the heart/diamond two suiter and 2♦+ with balanced.

After 1NT bid 2♦ next with single suited clubs and 2♥ + with the heart/club two suiter.

This gets you back to the normal symmetric continuations while making the relayer declarer as much as possible.

[akhare]

The_Hog, on Aug 30 2009, 07:23 PM, said:

You need a lot of practise in competition so that the responses become automatic. Practice bidding for at least 4-5 hours a week in the early stages.

Good to see the "s" / "c" verb / noun spelling forms are still in vogue in some parts of the world .

Humour aside, what Ron said and another pitch for the excellent B2SYM for that purpose.

[gwnn]

nigel those are pretty cool modifications, I like them!