[flytoox]

Scoring: MP

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Pd and I missed the cold slam on this deal. We play 2/1 95% FG, i.e., forcing to game except suit rebid by responder.

Here is what happened at our table.

N S
-- 1H
2D 2H?
2N 3C
3D 3N
AP

Who should be blamed for the bad result? Any comments and suggestions appreciated.

[dicklont]

North has 18 HCP and a good source of tricks.
The singleton king is in partners suit.
Passing 3NT is lazy, do something!.

[Fluffy]

I find south's bids perfect, so the blame must go to north .

Actually, from north's perspective, partner just need ♥A and the slam will be already playable. He could even bid 4♦ over 2♥.

[neilkaz]

"We play 2/1 95% FG, i.e., forcing to game except suit rebid by responder."

While I like 100% FG doesn't S have enough to rebid 3♣ here? Or does he need more when playing 95% FG? If S rebids 3♣ directly, N has to be brain dead to not go for slam.

Although I agree with Dick, N's pass of 3NT with that hand is lazy but he cannot see the 5-3 ♣ fit and may suspect that the hands missfit and that there are two losers. However, a try for slam does seem justified but he may have been put off by "3NT-itis" ..a disease that affects most players in the silliness known as MP scoring causing them to stop in 3NT rather than try for minor suit slams since if they end in 5m making 600 they lose out to the the 630's.

[hotShot]

If I'm playing SAYC than I can't show my 5-5 holding because partner can be minimum and it needs my extra strength to bid 3♣.
I thought one of the advantages of 2/1 is, that after partners GF, opener (and responder) can act knowing about the combined strength.

So I don't really understand why South does not reveal his strong 5-5 distribution and hides his shape in the 2♥ bid.

After South has shown a minimum hand and since no fit is found, combined 30 HCP is not enough to make 6NT. North knows that he has trouble to make use of openers ♥ (where is the entry to the ♥?) and smart opps could remove North entries to his ♦.
Based on the bidding, 6NT is not really an attractive point to reach.

[TylerE]

Can't beleive people are calling south's hand a "minimum". 100% to south for not rebidding 3♣. Why make a bid that shows 5 of your cards when you have one that shows 9.

[ArtK78]

Both are to blame.

South should show his clubs on his first rebid.

North should not pass 3NT.

I find that South's bid is more to blame for not reaching slam. Even if North takes another call over 3NT, slam may not be reached. But if South shows his second suit immediately, North will make sure that slam is reached.

South's 2♥ bid is a common error, but it is an error nonetheless.

[rbforster]

I know strong jump shifts are out of fashion, but 1♥-3♦ is a pretty good description of the North hand.

[andy_h]

I would also rebid 2H as South. What's there to love? KQ tight is not that great and our suit quality is only headed by AQxxx and KT9xx. I'd much rather let it go slow (and low) with 2H, let partner make a descriptive bid then if possible I can show my clubs later. Change the hand to
xx AKJTx x KQJ9x then would much sooner rebid 3C.

As to the problem, I blame North. He's looking at a primed out 18 count and partner doesnt exactly need much at all for slam to be making. Just imagine xxx AQxxx x KQxx and slam has great chances.

[whereagles]

Methods aren't optimal, but North could have bid a natural 4NT over 3NT (at this stage, what else can it be but natural??).

Other than that the auction seems fine to me.

[Phil]

No strong feelings about 2♥ versus 3♣. 2N should have worked out well and it gave pard room to show the clubs.

3♣ / 3♦ / 3N = automatic

Pass 3N? That's a deep position IMO. I prefer 4♣ which completes the description. South should come to the party now.

65% North - 35% South

[TylerE]

andy_h, on Mar 2 2009, 10:50 AM, said:

I would also rebid 2H as South. What's there to love? KQ tight is not that great and our suit quality is only headed by AQxxx and KT9xx. I'd much rather let it go slow (and low) with 2H, let partner make a descriptive bid then if possible I can show my clubs later. Change the hand to
xx AKJTx x KQJ9x then would much sooner rebid 3C.

As to the problem, I blame North. He's looking at a primed out 18 count and partner doesnt exactly need much at all for slam to be making. Just imagine xxx AQxxx x KQxx and slam has great chances.

Because you're going to have a REALLY hard time getting partner to believe you're 5-5? Honestly if you can't systemically bid 3♣ on this hand, you should drop a natural 3♣ rebid altogether and use it as artifical to handle some problem hand.

[jdonn]

100% north for passing 3NT. Nothing terrible had happened up until then.

[rogerclee]

Phil, on Mar 2 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

No strong feelings about 2♥ versus 3♣. 2N should have worked out well and it gave pard room to show the clubs.

3♣  / 3♦ / 3N = automatic

Pass 3N? That's a deep position IMO. I prefer 4♣ which completes the description. South should come to the party now.

65% North - 35% South

I agree with this, except the blame assignment. North really deserves much more, if not all of it.

[rogerclee]

TylerE, on Mar 2 2009, 09:18 AM, said:

andy_h, on Mar 2 2009, 10:50 AM, said:

I would also rebid 2H as South. What's there to love? KQ tight is not that great and our suit quality is only headed by AQxxx and KT9xx. I'd much rather let it go slow (and low) with 2H, let partner make a descriptive bid then if possible I can show my clubs later. Change the hand to
xx AKJTx x KQJ9x then would much sooner rebid 3C.

As to the problem, I blame North. He's looking at a primed out 18 count and partner doesnt exactly need much at all for slam to be making. Just imagine xxx AQxxx x KQxx and slam has great chances.

Because you're going to have a REALLY hard time getting partner to believe you're 5-5? Honestly if you can't systemically bid 3♣ on this hand, you should drop a natural 3♣ rebid altogether and use it as artifical to handle some problem hand.

Tyler why is this true? Why should I play 3♣ is artificial because I don't rebid 3♣ on a 5-5 14-count without good suits, a stiff in partner's suit, and a KQ doubleton? I would rebid 3♣ if my hand were slightly better, and of course if you switched my spades and diamonds. Does this imply that I bid 3♣ so infrequently that I should just play it is artificial?

But suppose you are right, what hand do you want 3♣ to show anyway, without drastically changing all of my 2/1 rebids? I would like to know what kind of hand you have in mind which is so frequent and difficult to show that I should have no way of showing a good hand with 5 hearts and 4 clubs.

[TylerE]

I'm just saying that if you don't bid 3♣ on this you'd better take a long hard look at what you ARE using 3♣ for.

[FrancesHinden]

The 5-3 club fit is irrelevant, as the correct contract is 6NT.
This is really North's fault. There is such a big difference between AQJ1098 (which is always at least five tricks) and AQJ432 (which may require reasonable luck to be four tricks).

You can discuss whether South is worth an immediate 3C bid over 2D or not, which is more to do with partnership style & agreements for the minimum needed for a 2D response and a 3C bid. But that's not really the point, as the partnership has either the HQ or the SQ to spare to make 6NT. Kx AQxxx xx Kxxx has play for 7NT and you wouldn't criticise South's bidding.

North is arguably too good for 4NT over 3NT, although it's not easy to bid all the making slams and stay out of the non-making ones.

[rogerclee]

TylerE, on Mar 2 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

I'm just saying that if you don't bid 3♣ on this you'd better take a long hard look at what you ARE using 3♣ for.

Yes, and I said that I think you are wrong, and I wanted you to explain your position more thoroughly. If this is the extent of your view, then...okay.

[y66]

Agree North can't pass 3N.

Good one for discussion of some of those bids, esp. 2H by opener (does 3C promise extra values and 5 clubs?), 2N by responder (is this a 2 way bid, i.e., 12-14 OR 18-19) and 3D by responder (is this forcing? Should be, IMO, even playing 2/1 95% GF).

[jdonn]

I want to clarify my prior comment. When I blamed north for passing 3NT I wasn't saying he should bid 4NT. He has a slam force IMO. It is not difficult at all to come up with balanced 10 counts opposite which he wants to be in slam. True there will be opening hands opposite which he doesn't, but those can usually either make on a finesse or require a particular lead to beat it. I think there are far more minimum openers (that would pass a 4NT bid) that will make slam in practice than total openers that won't make slam.

I think north should just bid 6♦ over 3NT. He rebid 2NT instead of 3♦ before so south should be aware he can pull to 6NT if he wants.

Edit: I forgot in my last statement that a 3♦ rebid would not have been forcing. In that case it's a little trickier, north can choose between bidding 6♦ or maybe 5NT converting 6♣ to 6♦, or maybe he should just take it slower with 4♦. But I'm still convinced he should force to slam.