[dbsboy]

Scoring: IMP

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You open 1♠.

Partner bids 2♣, which is a GF showing a Bal / 5+♣hand.
A 2♦bid promises 5+ cards

You bid 2♥, agree with this bid or 3♣ better? or Splinter?

Then partner bids 3NT, showing 15-17 and a Balanced Hand

What's your bid now and why?

[Free]

Pass. Since he didn't bid 2NT, he's not interested in playing anything else than 3NT, so why should you bid 4♣? If he CAN'T bid 2NT because of the system, your system is really poor!

[han]

I want to raise immediately with my QJxx. I really do.

I disagree with Frederick that 3NT says partner wants to play NT. 3NT shows a balanced hand with 15-17 and 2 spades and 3 hearts exactly, see the OP. Partner would almost always jump to 3NT with 2-3-4-4 or 2-3-3-5 (unless no diamond honor).

So I'm going to bid 4C now and complete my original plan when I started with 2H. It is possible that 3NT is best but I think 5C and/or 6C will often be better.

[Apollo81]

Pass. I worried about the lack of fast tricks in 5m, but we should have enough raw HCP to bring home 3NT.

[jdonn]

Sorry I think pass is AWFUL. This is the type of pass that occasionally goes down in 3NT with a slam on in a suit. Partner can still have five clubs even if he is balanced, no?

[Apollo81]

jdonn, on May 12 2008, 12:39 PM, said:

Sorry I think pass is AWFUL. This is the type of pass that occasionally goes down in 3NT with a slam on in a suit. Partner can still have five clubs even if he is balanced, no?

I'm not crazy about the 15-17 jump method and don't play it in my partnerships. For instance I would never bid 3N with Kx xxx AJx AKxxx. What if one of the OP's small clubs were a diamond in the given auction? I assume you're passing then, but the same sort of situation could still be happening.

If we were playing 3NT as minimal values, then I would pull because I'd be worried we couldn't take 9 tricks before they run diamonds.

[pclayton]

Regardless of your agreement about 3N, if 3N does not guarantee at least a double diamond stop (at least), this partnership is over. I think there's a good chance pard does not have six clubs as well.

Opposite:

xx xx AKJx AKxxx, we need to be in 3N. 5♣ is hopeless. 4N is in jeopardy.

xx Kxx AQx AKxxx, either 3N or 5♣ are OK, but frankly I prefer 3N.

Kx xxx AQx AKxxx, I'd much rather be in 3N. 5♣ might get beaten by a heart ruff.

I'm sure I could construct hands where 5♣ is better or equal to 3N and keeps 6♣ in play, but I think they are few and far between.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on May 12 2008, 12:50 PM, said:

Regardless of your agreement about 3N, if 3N does not guarantee at least a double diamond stop (at least), this partnership is over.

Huh?

Partner would bid 2♣ with 4-4 in the minors. I would expect that to be his most likely hand, especially with us being 0-4 in the minors.

I don't see why this is any different from:

1♠-1NT-2♥-3NT

for people like me who use 1NT followed by 3NT to show a balanced hand with 3 card support, except of course that this is two card support.

I certainly wouldn't assume that partner has more than Kxxx in either minor, and I wouldn't assume that the clubs are stronger than the diamonds. Maybe that means that you wouldn't partner with me any more- ah well.

I think most likely we're down. I opened an 11 count with one ace and no kings. I knew the risks when I did it. I think 5♣ has more hope, but 'more' is relative. I think the odds of 6♣ are close to nil.

So I'll just say 5♣. Hopefully that shows exactly what I have: a 5-4-0-4 minimum. If not, well, I can defend it at the postmortem.

EDIT: Sample worthless hand:

Kx
KTx
K9xx
AKxx

What are you supposed to do with this hand in this system, besides respond 2♣ and then bid 3NT?

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on May 12 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

Kx
KTx
K9xx
AKxx

What are you supposed to do with this hand in this system, besides  respond 2♣ and then bid 3NT?

I would bid 2♠. I really don't want to re-energize the whole argument about 2♠ promising 2 or 3, but to have to rebid 3N on a hand like this is really, really unappetizing.

Hell, you can prove your point a lot better and make the diamonds really weak.

[kenrexford]

What to do depends wildly on what the partnership agreements are.

For example, jtfanclub describes the actual auction as a parallel to 1♠-1NT-2♥-3NT. That makes little sense to me, as for me 1♠-1NT-2♥-3NT is an auction where Responder has shown a primed-out maximum non-GF with five hearts and a stiff spade.

So, consider the actual auction proposed. We do not know a few things, as suggested.

1. Does 2♠ promise 3+ support? For me, yes. For you, maybe not. This answer describes what 3NT can or cannot include.

2. Does 2NT not commit to anything? If so, this might be the waiting bid done with interest in club support and might, therefore, describe 3NT.

3. Is 3♦ frequently used to handle some type of "problem" hand?

I mean, my basic thinking as to what makes sense is this. If Responder has clubs and wants to hear from Opener about clubs, he should tend to bid under 3♣, meaning bidding 2NT. If Responder does not want to encourage club bidding unless the merits are incredibly strong, he bids 3NT. 3♦ should, IMO, be a waiting call. This is, of course, my preference, so I'd expect a 3NT call to show at least some sort of bottle-neck tenace in diamonds, like Q108x, or real stoppers. With club interest of any variety, I'd punt 2NT. With not mucb in the way of club interest, but a diamond problem, 3♦.

Assuming all of this, I pass.

If the parameters of the partnership understandings are different, then I would have to reassess.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on May 12 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on May 12 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

Kx
KTx
K9xx
AKxx

What are you supposed to do with this hand in this system, besides  respond 2♣ and then bid 3NT?

I would bid 2♠. I really don't want to re-energize the whole argument about 2♠ promising 2 or 3, but to have to rebid 3N on a hand like this is really, really unappetizing.

Hell, you can prove your point a lot better and make the diamonds really weak.

Well, if they're really weak, you bid 3♦.

But with a guaranteed stop, and honors in both suits, I'd be willing to try 3NT. It's hard for me to think of a 14 count opener can have where 3NT won't make. If partner isn't 54(04), we don't have a fit, and we're in a GF auction. So why not bid it? Partner won't always have 11.

[benlessard]

clear pass for me. 3Nt should show at least 1.5 stoppers in diamond and probably 2 most of the time. Its possible that 5C or 6C is better then 3nt but its also possible that 3Nt is the last plus. I much prefer 2H than a direct 3C.

Kx
KTx
K9xx
AKxx

Easy 3D bid. 4S 4H 5C and 6C might easily be better then 3Nt so why not temporize ?

[jtfanclub]

kenrexford, on May 12 2008, 06:49 PM, said:

For example, jtfanclub describes the actual auction as a parallel to 1♠-1NT-2♥-3NT.

Actually, I described it as parallel to:

"1♠-1NT-2♥-3NT

for people like me who use 1NT followed by 3NT to show a balanced hand with 3 card support, except of course that this is two card support."

Making up a meaning for it so that it's non-sensical can make people laugh, and laughter is good. But I did give a meaning here.

My point is, you didn't support clubs, so there's no reason for him to expect to need better stops in diamonds than in clubs. My example of minimum diamond stops was K9xx. Yours was QT8x. So I don't think that the hand we're picturing is all that different.

[kenrexford]

Like I said...