[FrancesHinden]

Vul vs NV. Swiss teams, Imps converted to VPs

♠ J65
♥ QJ95
♦ AJ6
♣ K42

you are playing strong NT, 5-card majors, not better minor (1♦ promises 4+, 1♣ 2+ cards)
you play a mild form of Walsh, partner will respond 1♦ with 5+ diamonds, 4+ hearts and invitational values opposite a weak NT but responds 1M with a weaker hand, and 1M with 4-4 unless game forcing.

You deal
1♣…P...1♦…1♠
x….3♠….4♠….5♠
?

x = support, i.e. 3 diamonds
4♠ is a slam try in diamonds and shows a control, not necessarily first round.

[Mbodell]

I'd dbl. Slam seems unlikely given we are a minimum for our points and 5♠ seems destined to go down given we have 3♠ cards to lead to cut down on xruffing.

[mikeh]

double: to slow partner down.

While I don't have much wasted in spades, I don't have much not wasted either. 4333 working 11 count... this hand screams slow down. And this bid does not bar partner: the auction tells him I don't have KQ10x in spades so he is allowed to bid, especially as I would double in tempo, thinking (possibly inaccurately) that this was easy.

[pclayton]

If pard has a spade void, then I rather like this hand. It seems to me that every non-spade honor is a working card. A 4333 doesn't bother me, since pard is looking at some freak and won't need our shape for anything. Possible patterns are a 0=4=5=4, 0=4=6=3 and beyond.

I'll pass and get out of pard's way.

[han]

I would not have opened this.

I think I double now, although I agree with Phil that this hand could be worse. Still, it could also be a lot better.

[ArtK78]

Double. Shows no spade control and warns partner that I don't want to bid on.

Partner knows that I don't have a spade stack on this auction.

[Fluffy]

Double, I though the same as mike said.

[jdonn]

I'll pass, I think if you start constructing hands for partner that justify his bid you see that many make slam.

[skjaeran]

This is a clear opening IMO.
I don't LOVE my hand, but every card is working. So I'll just barely make a forcing pass now.

[whereagles]

I'm gonna bid something. 5NT if know pard will take it as "pick a slam" or 6♦ otherwise.

Pard is marked with a spade void, in which case 25-27 working pts are enough for slam. I got 11 and I don't think pard can have less than 14 for his bidding. So slam rates to make.

[Impact]

Forcing pass as no wasted values: it is always a mistake to say "I'm square so I must double" when partner has shown huge distribution and slam ambition. I would just about open the square 11HCP (without the SJ) so I have no wastage for my bid and should not discourage a sane partner...but not enough to express any higher opinion by bidding slam/5NT etc

regards

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Oct 1 2007, 06:52 PM, said:

I'll pass, I don't mind if pard wants to bid 6

mikeh said:

I would double in tempo, thinking (possibly inaccurately) that this was easy

I make it 5 votes for pass, 5 votes for double and 1 for bidding.
Must be a good problem then!

Given that if you had a good hand (or a very good hand) you would bid slam (or make a grand slam try), pass and double both show minimums. The question is how much you need to pass...

I think that double pretty much implies a trump trick or failing that a truly horrible hand, and that pass is right. My partner held the hand and doubled slowly (so at least he thought it was difficult!).

Partner doesn't have 14 or 15 HCP, but she does have

-
AKxx
K9xxxxx
xx

and I think there are a couple of useful points from this hand which indicate why pass (or even bid) is right:

- it's not that surprising that partner has a very distributional hand given the auction

- Slam isn't great (needs CA onside plus diamonds not 3-0 offside), but you want to be in it because 5Sx is so cheap

- Some of the time slam is off, 5Sx is actually making...

- you really want to be in 6H by opener, which just needs diamonds not 3-0. Perhaps we should have been playing very strict transfer Walsh...

[ArtK78]

Holding the 0472 hand, there is no way I would sit for a double of 5♠. You know that it is unlikely that you will get rich defending 5♠x, and there are so many hands that partner could have for his 1♣ opening and support double on which 6♦ is cold that you just cannot pass.

Partner could have a mediocre 4234 hand with spade values and you would still be cold for 6D. For example:

QJTx
xx
AQx
Axx

Here, you will beat up 5♠x, taking 2 spades, 2 hearts, 2 clubs and maybe a diamond. But most of the time opener will not have spade values and will have values where you need them to be. All you need to make 6♦ is 2-1 diamonds and 5-2 hearts.

All in all, I can't see passing out 5♠x on the 0472 hand.

[cherdano]

ArtK78, on Oct 3 2007, 08:22 AM, said:

Holding the 0472 hand, there is no way I would sit for a double of 5♠. You know that it is unlikely that you will get rich defending 5♠x, and there are so many hands that partner could have for his 1♣ opening and support double on which 6♦ is cold that you just cannot pass.

Partner could have a mediocre 4234 hand with spade values and you would still be cold for 6D. For example:

QJTx
xx
AQx
Axx

Here, you will beat up 5♠x, taking 2 spades, 2 hearts, 2 clubs and maybe a diamond. But most of the time opener will not have spade values and will have values where you need them to be. All you need to make 6♦ is 2-1 diamonds and 5-2 hearts.

All in all, I can't see passing out 5♠x on the 0472 hand.

Besides the fact that you aren't cold with this hand, 4234 is a very good shape. It has 3 diamonds (good) and only 2 hearts (good). On the bidding it seems that partner has 2-3 spades, so it is rather likely that partner has 3 hearts. Try making slam opposite a 3325-hand with wasted spade values.

[pclayton]

ArtK78, on Oct 3 2007, 06:22 AM, said:

Holding the 0472 hand, there is no way I would sit for a double of 5♠. You know that it is unlikely that you will get rich defending 5♠x, and there are so many hands that partner could have for his 1♣ opening and support double on which 6♦ is cold that you just cannot pass.

Partner could have a mediocre 4234 hand with spade values and you would still be cold for 6D. For example:

QJTx
xx
AQx
Axx

Here, you will beat up 5♠x, taking 2 spades, 2 hearts, 2 clubs and maybe a diamond. But most of the time opener will not have spade values and will have values where you need them to be. All you need to make 6♦ is 2-1 diamonds and 5-2 hearts.

All in all, I can't see passing out 5♠x on the 0472 hand.

12 cards Art. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a 4th club. Note that if this hand has a 3rd heart, 6♦ is hopeless except on an (unlikely) high spade lead.

Hands like this don't bother me. 1st, this hand probably rebids 1N and doesn't make a support double. 2nd, there is no way the opponents are bidding like this with only 9 trump. Obviously move a few honors around and slam is hopeless as well. 3rd, we are flat out crushing 5♠, so we are in a great position no matter what we bid.

I think 4♠ by your Frances' pard is pretty aggressive. I might have settled for 4♥.

[Fluffy]

Arend I think openenr used support double so 3 diamonds must be there

[cherdano]

Fluffy, on Oct 3 2007, 10:02 AM, said:

Arend I think openenr used support double so 3 diamonds must be there

Yes forgot about that

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

QJTx
xx
AQx
Axxx

All in all, I can't see passing out 5♠x on the 0472 hand.

This example is more obviously a forcing pass than the actual hand - in fact it's pretty close to bidding a slam itself. I would never expect 2 aces and the queen of trumps for a penalty double.

Quote

But most of the time opener will not have spade values and will have values where you need them to be.

ummm.. that's why opener has the choice of pass or double.

But it's true on the 0472 hand that if they hadn't bid 5S, and opener had cued 5C, I (partner) was going to bid 6D and hope for the best. However, that isn't the same as pulling partner's penalty double when he's had a chance to warn you off.

[ArtK78]

cherdano, on Oct 3 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Oct 3 2007, 08:22 AM, said:

Holding the 0472 hand, there is no way I would sit for a double of 5♠.  You know that it is unlikely that you will get rich defending 5♠x, and there are so many hands that partner could have for his 1♣ opening and support double on which 6♦ is cold that you just cannot pass.

Partner could have a mediocre 4234 hand with spade values and you would still be cold for 6D.  For example:

QJTx
xx
AQx
Axx

Here, you will beat up 5♠x, taking 2 spades, 2 hearts, 2 clubs and maybe a diamond.  But most of the time opener will not have spade values and will have values where you need them to be.  All you need to make 6♦ is 2-1 diamonds and 5-2 hearts.

All in all, I can't see passing out 5♠x on the 0472 hand.

Besides the fact that you aren't cold with this hand, 4234 is a very good shape. It has 3 diamonds (good) and only 2 hearts (good). On the bidding it seems that partner has 2-3 spades, so it is rather likely that partner has 3 hearts. Try making slam opposite a 3325-hand with wasted spade values.

Partner made a support double promising 3 cards in diamonds. So 3325 shape is not possible.

My point is that there are many hands that opener could hold that are consistent with the auction on which 6♦ will be cold and you won't do all that great against 5♠. Furthermore, the double of 5♠ is not a PENALTY double, it is a penalty double. It expresses doubt about the offensive prospects of the hand. Opener suspects that responder has a good offensive hand, but he doesn't have any idea that responder's hand is as good as it is.

Sorry about the 12 cards in my example hand in an earlier post. Please add a fourth club. I did mention in the text that opener could have a mediocre 4234 hand and opener's side could be cold for 6♦.

The bottom line is that I believe that responder should bid 6♦ even over a double of 5♠. Does it have to be right? No, but I suspect it will be right most of the time.