[kgr]

IMP's; Your partner opens 2NT in 1st seat and opps pass.
2NT = 20-22 HCP can include a 5-card Major.
You have:
QJxxx=QJxx=x=xxx
You play transfers and Niemeyer (or puppet).
What is your bidding plan with this hand?
Should 2NT-3H-3S-4H show 5-5 or is 5-4 ok?
--------------
Suppose you play that 2NT-3H-3S does show 2-card Spade (or less) and opener would bid 3NT with 3-card spade or cue with support and a good hand. Would that change your plan?

[csdenmark]

kgr, on Jan 3 2007, 07:24 PM, said:

IMP's; Your partner opens 2NT in 1st seat and opps pass.
2NT = 20-22 HCP can include a 5-card Major.
You have:
QJxxx=QJxx=x=xxx
You play transfers and Niemeyer (or puppet).
What is your bidding plan with this hand?
Should 2NT-3H-3S-4H show 5-5 or is 5-4 ok?
--------------
Suppose you play that 2NT-3H-3S does show 2-card Spade (or less) and opener would bid 3NT with 3-card spade or cue with support and a good hand. Would that change your plan?

Responder is captain and I prefer no mistakes risking wrong harbour. Puppet Stayman please.

Suppose you play that 2NT-3H-3S does show 2-card Spade (or less) and opener would bid 3NT with 3-card spade or cue with support and a good hand. Would that change your plan?
I don't. 3♠=3+♠, 3NT=2♠. But it is always Stayman so I will never come close to your question.

[FrancesHinden]

This is the 'standard' probalem distribution over 2NT that you need to agree a way with partner to show. There are many solutions, but none of them is included as standard in textbooks.

You would like to show partner you have this distribution, while being able to stop in 3NT. The way I use - which I don't pretend is normal, or standard, or anything like that - is that opener responds 3NT to 3C with 2=2 or 2=3 in the majors. So if opener responds 3D, you know he either has 3-card spade support or 4-card heart support (or both). Continuations then depend on your version of Stayman.

[EricK]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 3 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

This is the 'standard' probalem distribution over 2NT that you need to agree a way with partner to show. There are many solutions, but none of them is included as standard in textbooks.

You would like to show partner you have this distribution, while being able to stop in 3NT. The way I use - which I don't pretend is normal, or standard, or anything like that - is that opener responds 3NT to 3C with 2=2 or 2=3 in the majors. So if opener responds 3D, you know he either has 3-card spade support or 4-card heart support (or both). Continuations then depend on your version of Stayman.

This is what I would recommend too. I actually thought this was the normal approach.

[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 3 2007, 07:45 PM, said:

This is the 'standard' probalem distribution over 2NT that you need to agree a way with partner to show. There are many solutions, but none of them is included as standard in textbooks.

You would like to show partner you have this distribution, while being able to stop in 3NT. The way I use - which I don't pretend is normal, or standard, or anything like that - is that opener responds 3NT to 3C with 2=2 or 2=3 in the majors. So if opener responds 3D, you know he either has 3-card spade support or 4-card heart support (or both). Continuations then depend on your version of Stayman.

I don't understand this.

1) If you are playing standard Stayman, responder can just follow-up with Smolen (or a natural 3S) after 3C-3D, so I don't see a problem.

2) If you are playing Puppet Stayman, I always thought you need 3N to deny a 4-card major, so that responder can safely go beyond 3N with 4-4 in the majors.

Are you referring to yet another "standard (Puppet) Stayman", or do you want to use 3C-3D-3M differently?

[kenrexford]

A friend of mine introduced me to a neat idea, with a complicated version and a simple version, resolving this issue.

In the simple version, use Puppet Stayman. Opener, with five hearts, responds 3NT. With no 4-card or 5-card major, he bids 3♥. Thus, you reverse the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT. This saves space for Responder to bid 3♠ after 3♥, showing 5♠/4♥. With 2NT-3♦-3♥-3♠ for 4♠/5♥, all normal options are covered.

The complicated version covers the 5-3 problem. Again, most start with 3♣. If Opener has 4-4 in the majors, he bids 3NT. With five spades, 3♠. With 4-5 hearts, 3♥; Responder can then ask for the heart length by bidding 3♠ (3NT=4, other=5). With 2-4♠ and 2-3♥, Opener bids 3♦. If Responder bids 3♥, it asks about the spade length (3♠=3, 3NT=2, other=4), If Responder bids 3♠, it asks about the heart length (3NT=2, other=3).

It takes a while to think through the complicated option. However, once you do, you realize that some patterns are not handled well for responder. One is 4♠/5♥ (no solution after 2NT-3♣-3♦), but this is handled with a Jacoby Transfer, as usual. The other is 5♠/3♥ (no solution after 2NT-3♣-3♥). This latter is also handled with a Jacoby Transfer, to 3♠, but Opener rejects the transfer with 2♠/5♥, bidding 3NT. This latter "solution" gives up on transferring to 3♠ to play; if that is too much to forfeit, then the rest at least handles one of the 5-3 patterns.

The last possibility is 5-5. The traditional soution seems to be 2NT-3♥-3♠-4♥. But, if 3♠ is a relay to 3NT for a minor slam try, perhaps a direct 3NT should show 5-5 (not slam forcing -- passable on 2245/2254). This requires a 3♠ call any time you want to simply raise to 3NT, allowing a lead director or a negative inference, but it may be of interest to some.

[kenrexford]

BTW, if you like this approach, it might also help to agree on super-acceptance rules, including flag bids (4♣ as big heart preference, 4♦ as bid diamond preference) when both majors are possible fits (especially after 2NT-3♣-3NT). You also should discuss expectations when Responder reverts to a minor after 3♣ or after a length-ask.

[whereagles]

lol... muppet.. funny name.

[mr1303]

I've said this before on vugraph, and I'll say it again now.

DON'T PLAY PUPPET STAYMAN. EVER!!!

My reasons are as follows:

1) The sequence 2NT 3C 3NT makes it much harder for responder to show his hand

2) It tells opponemts too much about opener's hand

[Echognome]

mr1303, on Jan 3 2007, 10:27 PM, said:

I've said this before on vugraph, and I'll say it again now.

DON'T PLAY PUPPET STAYMAN. EVER!!!

My reasons are as follows:

1) The sequence 2NT 3C 3NT makes it much harder for responder to show his hand

2) It tells opponemts too much about opener's hand

If you're going to go down this route, then should I say:

"DON'T PREEMPT YOURSELF BY OPENING 2NT WITH A BALANCED MONSTER!"

However, I don't imagine it's right to recommend everyone to play a strong club system.

[Free]

So you play transfers and puppet stayman. This is a typical hand which is unbiddable, because, whatever you do, you'll always use the wrong road...

What does 2NT-3♠ mean in your partnership. I know many people using this to show 5♠ and 4♥ with GF strength. Another easy way is to play Romex instead of puppet stayman.

If you can't make good agreements about this, I'd just use puppet stayman and show a 4-4M hand if it's necessary.

As for the "don't play puppet stayman": I agree, play Romex!

[kgr]

kenrexford, on Jan 3 2007, 11:25 PM, said:

In the simple version, use Puppet Stayman.  Opener, with five hearts, responds 3NT.  With no 4-card or 5-card major, he bids 3♥.  Thus, you reverse the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT.  This saves space for Responder to bid 3♠ after 3♥, showing 5♠/4♥.  With 2NT-3♦-3♥-3♠ for 4♠/5♥, all normal options are covered.

Maybe it is better to reverse the meaning of 3S/3NT after 3H?:
2NT-3C-3H-
- 3S: transfer 3NT
- 3NT: 5-card S.

FYI: http://www.bridgematters.com/twont.htm

[kenrexford]

kgr, on Jan 3 2007, 07:09 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jan 3 2007, 11:25 PM, said:

In the simple version, use Puppet Stayman.  Opener, with five hearts, responds 3NT.  With no 4-card or 5-card major, he bids 3♥.  Thus, you reverse the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT.  This saves space for Responder to bid 3♠ after 3♥, showing 5♠/4♥.  With 2NT-3♦-3♥-3♠ for 4♠/5♥, all normal options are covered.

Maybe it is better to reverse the meaning of 3S/3NT after 3H?:
2NT-3C-3H-
- 3S: transfer 3NT
- 3NT: 5-card S.

FYI: http://www.bridgematters.com/twont.htm

There are some merits to reversing the meanings here. The question is whether (1) the gain from making Opener Declarer on deals where the end contract is 4♠ outweighs (2) the loss from allowing Opener's RHO to make a lead-director in spades (or to negatively infer mild preference for another lead when not doubling 3♠) when the end contract is 3NT.

Some of this deals with odds. If Opener lacks a four-card major, he seems to have 2344, 3244, 2245, 2254, 3235, 3253, 2335, or 2353 pattern, most likely. Less than half feature ability to support spades, but all feature reason to suspect bad things from a spade lead-director or from a negative-inference non-double. This leans one toward keeping it simple.

[neilkaz]

Echognome, on Jan 3 2007, 05:15 PM, said:

mr1303, on Jan 3 2007, 10:27 PM, said:

I've said this before on vugraph, and I'll say it again now.

DON'T PLAY PUPPET STAYMAN. EVER!!!

My reasons are as follows:

1) The sequence 2NT 3C 3NT makes it much harder for responder to show his hand

2) It tells opponemts too much about opener's hand

If you're going to go down this route, then should I say:

"DON'T PREEMPT YOURSELF BY OPENING 2NT WITH A BALANCED MONSTER!"

However, I don't imagine it's right to recommend everyone to play a strong club system.

Or don't open 2NT with a 5 card major, but then you often have to invent a jump shift to force, or play Gazzilli 2♣, or just raise a 1NT response to 3NT and let the chips fall where they may (which isn't always where you want them).

So this Muppet idea makes pretty good sense to me .. neilkaz ..

[Codo]

I would try:

2 NT 3 ♣ 3 NT as no four card major
3 ♦ 3 ♥ 3 ♠ as 5 Hearts NO 4 Spades, play 3 NT or 4 Heart (maybe stronger)
3 ♦ 3 ♥ 3 NT shows 5 Hearts, 4 Spades paco
3 ♠ 3 NT to play 3 NT or to go ahead with 4 in a minor
3 NT to show exactly 5/4 in the majors.
4 ♦ 5+/5+
This makes the strong hand declarer. The downside is, that a 3 Spade bid may be doubled for lead directing reasons and that with hands which have SI you can get some problems. But this is no big issue for us, because all strong NTs are opened 2 ♣ or 2 ♦ and with a hand wit SI, responder had shown this before opener rebids 2 NT.

[helene_t]

If you play Niemeijer, 2NT-3NT shows 5 spades and 4 hearts.

[kgr]

helene_t, on Jan 4 2007, 01:26 PM, said:

If you play Niemeijer, 2NT-3NT shows 5 spades and 4 hearts.

Yes. right.
In fact I'm trying to find other conventions here to replace one that I forgot too often...Probably to forget these new onces.

[1eyedjack]

2N-3C-3N = 4-4 in the majors (then transfer to rightside 4M)
2N-3C-3S= 5xS (which rightsides Spades)
2N-3C-3H = 4xH or 5xH, fewer than 4xS (then 3S asks after 5th x H) (which rightsides Hearts)
2N-3C-3D = other (ie fewer than 5xS, and fewer than 4xH)

Then
2N-3C-3D-3S = 5xH + 4xS (the one occasion when Spades may be wrongsided)
2N-3C-3D-3H = asks for Spade length (and includes 4xH + 5xS together with most hands with just 4xS)
2N-3C-3D-3H-3S = 3xS (rightsides Spades if responder has 5)
2N-3C-3D-3H-3N = 2xS (no S fit, so play in 3N)
2N-3C-3D-3H-4C = 4xS (certain S fit unless responder has slam try, room to choose who plays in Spades)

So, responder with 5-4 either way round in the majors can start with 3C (freeing up 2N-3Dtfr-3H-3S for other use)

What's the problem?

Am sure this and similar methods have been aired in this forum before.