[csdenmark]

kgr, on Dec 28 2006, 01:04 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ AK4 ♥   ♦ A542 ♣ AK9654 ♠ T8765 ♥ J5 ♦ KJ976 ♣ J ♠ QJ92 ♥ A8 ♦ Q8 ♣ QT732 ♠ 3 ♥ KQT976432 ♦ T3 ♣ 8

Thanks for answers.
Here the full hand and bidding at our table:
1C-4NT
5C-5H
7C-(DBL)-7H
P-(DBL)
Result: -2 after a club lead.

This is an example of why it is still so that good hands must be progressed slowly

[whereagles]

Oh yeah? I think the correct bidding is

1♣ 4♥
PASS

4♥ = long suit (1-2 losers), nothing else outside.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Dec 28 2006, 04:36 PM, said:

This is an example of why it is still so that good hands must be progressed slowly

Hmmm

I think its an example why you need to be careful chosing your partners.

7♣ is completely insane. I can ALMOST understand a 6♣ bid.

Presumably opener intended that 5♣ show 0 or 3 key cards with clubs as trump. Partner's 5♥ bid denied interest in slam opposite zero key cards. 6♣ would confirm three keys, and offer a choice of strain. 6♥ is actually a pretty decent contract. Doesn't make on a club lead, but I've been in worse slams.

On the other hand, 7♣ is just asking for trouble. Your club suit isn't nearly strong enough to play for no losers opposite x or even xx. You certainly don't have any tolerance for partner's heart suit.

I agree with comments that 4NT should not be keycard for clubs

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Dec 26 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

>Your partner opens 1C and RHO passes.
>What do you bid?

Cheapest forcing bids until at least game has been reached.

Are you seriously suggesting responding 1♦?

[csdenmark]

hrothgar, on Dec 28 2006, 05:10 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Dec 26 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

>Your partner opens 1C and RHO passes.
>What do you bid?

Cheapest forcing bids until at least game has been reached.

Are you seriously suggesting responding 1♦?

certainly not - but I wondered why no overcall. My initial bid will of course be 1♥ and then I want to be able to take advantage from interference, basically cue bidding. The outcome looks like I will not be able to buy for 4♥, which I suspected earlier. Then I need some guidance of what to do in 5 level as I dont believe in 6-level. I assumed distribution to be more unbalanced than it really was.

5♥DBL is the perfect contract. I need to be able to have something for a DBL of a possible 5♠.

[WrecksVee]

Of the ideas I have seen I agree with the immediate response of 5♥. I think
4♥ is the right idea but I am bothered by the extra trick due to the nine card suit. So I try to tell partner and see if he can bid six if it is there.

About 4NT I understand the impulse. I would take it as regular Blackwood. I prefer not to use RKCB unless a suit is actually agreed. That is easy enough to do when you fit Opener by making whatever forcing raise you have (Jacoby 2NT or inverted minor for me). To get RKCB for ♥ I would need to find a way to set them as trump. But as I am only interested in aces on this hand regular Blackwood would be fine.

BTW I think 1♣-1♥-any-4♥ sends the wrong message. For me this shows a suit that needs no support but it also implies I have some defense outside ♥. Else I would just bid 4 or 5 ♥ immediately. The hand can not be too strong else I would have made a strong jump shift if available.

[hotShot]

I think 4♥ is the best bid for now, i may want to bid more over 4♠ if partner does not.

The downside of an immediate 4NT is, that may partner will understand it as suit setting in ♣!

[P_Marlowe]

hrothgar, on Dec 28 2006, 10:02 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Dec 28 2006, 04:36 PM, said:

This is an example of why it is still so that good hands must be progressed slowly

Hmmm

I think its an example why you need to be careful chosing your partners.

7♣ is completely insane. I can ALMOST understand a 6♣ bid.

Presumably 5♣ showed 0 or 3 key cards with clubs as trump. Partner's 5♥ bid denied interest in slam opposite zero key cards. 6♣ would confirm three keys, and offer a choice of strain. 6♥ is actually a pretty decent contract. Doesn't make on a club lead, but I've been in worse slams.

On the other hand, 7♣ is just asking for trouble. Your club suit isn't nearly strong enough to play for no losers opposite x or even xx. You certainly don't have any tolerance for partner's heart suit.

An alternative explanation:
5H is a ask for specific Kings, looking
for a grand, 5D would have been asking
for the Queen of trumps.
This does not explain 7C, but it shows, that
4NT over 1C is dangerous.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I like 5♥ immediately showing a hand with nothing but really long hearts, leaving 1♥ 4♥ to describe a hand with long hearts and slightly better values.

It also has the added bonus of leaving the guesswork up to the opponents immediately. If I am going to bid 5H over 4S or 5 minor, I may as well bid it now.

[pclayton]

i think the 9th heart gives the hand a little too much playing strength for a 4H call. Id bid 4H with a good 7 card suit and some shape or most 8 card suits.

I dont know how the auction goes if I start with 1H. I can rational auctions ending up in 4, 5 and 6 hearts.

[the hog]

"This is an example of why it is still so that good hands must be progressed slowly"

Claus this is not an example of that at all. The 7C bidder is a nutter. After 5S showing 3 Aces 6H will be reached and made.

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Dec 28 2006, 04:50 PM, said:

Claus this is not an example of that at all. The 7C bidder is a nutter. After 5S showing 3 Aces 6H will be reached and made.

I am not sure this is correct. First, after a Club opening lead, you can not make 6♥ as there is a trump promotion on a second round of clubs by the hand with the ♥ACE.

Second, I am not so certain 7C was a crazy bid. Here with three aces, 5H has to be forcing, and it is certainly not clear that 4NT did not agree clubs as trumps (it would not for me, since I play inverted minor raise, so if I don't bid 2♣, then 4NT is not RKBC, but others would use the rule last suit bid is agreed trumps). If you are thinking clubs are trumps, 5H is an asking bid looking for grand slam. A void must be just what the "doctor ordered."

The partners were simply not on the same page on the precise meaning of 4NT... clubs agreed or not???

Make responder something like

x
AQx
KQJT
QJTxx

It would not be perfect bidding, but I could see opener envisioning it....

[the hog]

Yes, you are right about the uppercut, but I still believe that no suit has been set as trumps here, so 4NT is simple Blackwood, not rkc.
Further to those who suggest 5H as a response - to me that would say bid 6 with any H honour - the same as a 5H opening.

I don't see how responding 1H is going to give you ANY advantage, particularly as I expect a barrage from the opposition. As Phil says, the 9 card suit makes the hand too strong for 4H. I think simple Bw is by far the best approach on this hand. The problem occurred when pd took the bid to be KC. Why? 6H is a normal contract and unlucky to fail. The go slow comments are meaningless!

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Dec 28 2006, 05:11 PM, said:

Yes, you are right about the uppercut, but I still believe that no suit has been set as trumps here, so 4NT is simple Blackwood, not rkc.
Further to those who suggest 5H as a response - to me that would say bid 6 with any H honour - the same as a 5H opening.

I don't see how responding 1H is going to give you ANY advantage, particularly as I expect a barrage from the opposition. As Phil says, the 9 card suit makes the hand too strong for 4H. I think simple Bw is by far the best approach on this hand. The problem occurred when pd took the bid to be KC. Why? 6H is a normal contract and unlucky to fail. The go slow comments are meaningless!

I agree on many levels...

First, I agree that 4NT can not be keycard. It violates the rule if you can make a forcing raise first, 4NT is never keycard. It can be quantitative, or normal blackwood, or whatever you want, just not keycard.

Second, I agree that 5♥ is wrong, at least for me. I am hardly going to preempt to the five level after partner opens and the next hand passes being vul.

However, I disagree that 4NT is correct. I am perfectly happy with either 4♥ or 1♥. First even if parnter has three keycards, that is no guarantee you are not off 2 cashable diamonds. And even if he has three keycard that you are not off 2-trump tricks (AJx with one hand). Also, for once, I am not worried about a barrage, because I am willing to bid 5♥ if necessary.

[the hog]

Well, its just as well we don't get too many 9 card suits in response to an opening. The reason the opps pre empting concerns me is consider the following -
1C (P) 1H (4S)
X (P) 5H (P)
P (5S)

Now what? This situation is not toounlikely. Sure pd knows we have a freak with long H, but 9 to the KQ??

Anyway there is no right or wrong answer. I still prefer 4NT and will pay off to AJx in one opp's hand. On the given layout 4NT would have worked well. My response was more a reaction to the belief that just because there is an uppercut and 6H fails, 1H is the correct bid.

[csdenmark]

The_Hog, on Dec 29 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

Well, its just as well we don't get too many 9 card suits in response to an opening. The reason the opps pre empting concerns me is consider the following -
1C (P) 1H (4S)
X  (P)  5H (P)
P  (5S)

Now what? This situation is not toounlikely. Sure pd knows we have a freak with long H, but 9 to the KQ??

Anyway there is no right or wrong answer. I still prefer 4NT and will pay off to AJx in one opp's hand. On the given layout 4NT would have worked well. My response was more a reaction to the belief that just because there is an uppercut and 6H fails, 1H is the correct bid.

Yes on actual layout it is very unlikely - it would simply have little to do with sound auction.

Failing to open 2♣ we know our HcP strenght is 18-24. We need to be very careful about slam perspectives as we know opener must hold at least 3 aces for that + a king to either of those. Responder holds a 5 loser hand. Not all 9 card hands are pure diamonds.

---

To me on actual layout a solid auction would be besomething like:
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
1NT - 2♠ - 3♠ - 4♠
5♣ - Pass - 5♥ - Pass

Alternatively:
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
1NT - 3♠ - 4♠ - DBL
Pass - Pass - 5♥ - Pass or DBL

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Dec 29 2006, 02:09 AM, said:

Yes on actual layout it is very unlikely - it would simply have little to do with sound auction.

To me on actual layout a solid auction would be be something like:

1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
1NT - 2♠ - 3♠ - 4♠
5♣ - Pass - 5♥ - Pass

Alternatively:
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
1NT - 3♠ - 4♠ - DBL
Pass - Pass - 5♥ - Pass or DBL

Claus, if you are suggesting these as examples of "sound" auctions then you should restrict yourself to asking questions in the Beginner / Intermediate forums

I'm going to ignore the suggested 1♠ overcall. (I think that most people would prefer either to pass or bid 2NT). Instead lets focus on the real atrocity:

You're recommending a 1NT rebid with a 6-4 pattern, a Heart void, and reverse strength and promoting this as an example of sound bidding?

[csdenmark]

hrothgar, on Dec 29 2006, 01:23 AM, said:

Claus, if you are suggesting these as examples of "sound" auctions then you should restrict yourself to asking questions in the Beginner / Intermediate forums

Sorry Richard - I am not going to take your advice. When I occasionally looks into there I mostly find explanations much too advanced for my innocent head.

[the hog]

"Not all 9 card hands are pure diamonds."

No some are hearts. - Sorry couldn't resist that! Seriously though, Claus I don't think the bidding you suggest would happen at any table.

[csdenmark]

The_Hog, on Dec 29 2006, 02:59 AM, said:

"Not all 9 card hands are pure diamonds."

No some are hearts. - Sorry couldn't resist that! Seriously though, Claus I don't think the bidding you suggest would happen at any table.

Maybe - maybe not. I think those advocating 1♥ has something like the scheme I sat up in mind. To take care of your perspectives in slam but at the same time to guard for the weak HcP counting. The 4NT response ignore that vulnerability.

After disclosure of the full distribution we see that immediate 4♥ would likely close the auction. Such would give up your perspectives. The aim of a bridge auction is to explore and to test your perspectives.