[pclayton]

Here's a cousin to another recent thread:

1♥ - (3♦) - 3♠ - pass
4♦

Does this, or does this not indicate spade support? We all agree it doesn't promise a control.

Note the other thread had a 1♦ opening.

[mikeh]

It does for me, altho I see the argument in favour of it being unclear: what do we do with a monster 1♥ opening bid, no real fit for ♠ and a ♦ control (I don't think I would be worried about a big hand that had no fit an no control...I'd downgrade that to a 4♥ bid anyway)

The problem is that we lack the bidding space to cater to both a good hand with support and a very good hand with very good ♥s, and no primary fit. I think we have to choose our poison and stick with it, recognizing that there wil be hands on which we will wish we'd the other agreement.

The way I look at it is that I am more likely to really love my hand when I have a fit than when I don't: so the '4♦ agrees ♠s' will be a more common usage than the '4♦ is coming in ♥s'. The dual purpose meaning is, of course, even more common, since it arises in both circumstances. But it makes partner's task impossible. Is he to bid 4♥ when he hates his hand and wants no part of a slam move opposite a non-fit? Or should 4♥ be a good news bid, showing a fit (or a control?) there? You cannot play it both ways, since one is intended to fetch a pass and the other is an encouraging move towards slam.

[HeartA]

It showes support. If a cue-bid were below 3NT, it could be ambiguous.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Dec 22 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

I see the argument in favour of it being unclear: what do we do with a monster 1♥ opening bid, no real fit for ♠ and a ♦ control

If the monster 1♥ opener is a 2-suiter, you can bid 4♣ now. If it's a 1-suiter (e.g. the good 6-3 hands you guys use to jump-shift into the 3-carder)... open 2♣

[cherdano]

I am sure this is not standard, but my preference is to play this cue as choice of games. (I secretly hope to get support from Frances, though.) If you have an excellent hand for spades, you can still hope partner bids 4H and remove to spades, to show a slam try in spades (and guess if partner bids 4♠).

Arend

[inquiry]

Strong spade raise, does not promise a stopper. A question becomes, however, does it deny a club stopper (in other words, if you had similar hand with club control, would you bid 4♣ as either natural or an advanced cue-bid so that bidding 4♦ denies a club control?)

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Dec 22 2006, 03:48 PM, said:

Strong spade raise, does not promise a stopper. A question becomes, however, does it deny a club stopper (in other words, if you had similar hand with club control, would you bid 4♣ as either natural or an advanced cue-bid so that bidding 4♦ denies a club control?)

Noooo, 4♣ is natural!!!!

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Dec 22 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

inquiry, on Dec 22 2006, 03:48 PM, said:

Strong spade raise, does not promise a stopper. A question becomes, however, does it deny a club stopper (in other words, if you had similar hand with club control, would you bid 4♣ as either natural or an advanced cue-bid so that bidding 4♦ denies a club control?)

Noooo, 4♣ is natural!!!!

"as either natural or as an advanced cue-bid"

I guess what I meant was actually as "and/or" instead of or. Certainly 4♣ CAN include spade support (since it is forcing), and certainly it is most often clubs (I mean, if you don't have a stopper and no fit, you have to be able to bid naturally).

However, I prefer to support with support, and 4♣ is too ambigious to be used as an advanced cue-bid unless you are pretty much forcing to slam anyway in spades (or at the very least forcing to 5♠ on exceptionally strong hand.

[cherdano]

Ben I understood what you meant. Well I don't know what is best, but I do know that I would never play 4♣ as either/or here. When you bid 4♣, then support to 4♠, that is (for me) just looking for the best strain. Probably with 5 clubs and two spades. A bid of 4♣ followed by a slam try in spades would still keep 4♣ natural for me, bidding out the shape so partner knows when to accept the slam try etc.

So just the thought of using 4♣ as advance cue made me run out of the room in total shock, then go back to the keyboard and use a couple of exclamation marks.

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Dec 22 2006, 10:10 AM, said:

Ben I understood what you meant. Well I don't know what is best, but I do know that I would never play 4♣ as either/or here. When you bid 4♣, then support to 4♠, that is (for me) just looking for the best strain. Probably with 5 clubs and two spades. A bid of 4♣ followed by a slam try in spades would still keep 4♣ natural for me, bidding out the shape so partner knows when to accept the slam try etc.

So just the thought of using 4♣ as advance cue made me run out of the room in total shock, then go back to the keyboard and use a couple of exclamation marks.

Well I would never bid 4♣ with spade support and then bid 4♠. I would jump to 6♦ or 6♠ or 5♠ to get the point across. But again, I prefer 4♦ to be "strong raise" and 4♠ normal raise.