[xx1943]

Scoring: IMP

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Your system: 2/1 with weak NT(12-14) inverted minors.........

You open 1♦, because you play 12-14 NT
LHO pass
partner bids 1NT (6-10; denying 4-card major, but maybe unbalanced)
RHO 2♥

what is your bid?

1) pass with nice 16 HCP and pd may have 10
2) penalty double without hearts??
3) Neg double wouzld be nice, but this double is for business imho.
4) 2NT without any idea to stop the hearts?
5) 3 hearts seems me a great overbid. Should show 18-19 HCP

Excluding all other possibilities I think pass is the least of all evils.
Particularly because Partner has the possibility to balance.

I'm interested to hear your opininons.

Al

[temp3600]

Pass seems to me the least flawed and also the most flexible call, so it easily gets my first choice. 2NT as a distant second. 2♠, 3♥ and punitive X far far behind.

[hotShot]

Why is 2♠ not a possible choice?
Your 1♦ opening should suggest that you hold only 4 cards in that suit, since you would have opened 1♠ otherwise.
It should neglect a ♥ stopper because you could bid 2 NT if you had one.
It should show a stronger hand, which is what you have.
If partner has a ♥ stopper he can bid 2/3 NT, without ♥stopper he can pass holding 3♠ 's. Playing 2♠ with just 7 trumps is not to dangerous. With only 2♠s he will have 5♣ or 4♦ to bid a minor.

Without that option double seems most flexible. Pass is not very helpful to partner, since you could hold an unbalanced 12 HCP hand.

[whereagles]

Playing a weak NT, pass tends to show an unbalanced min. You have a balanced med. Quite a difference. You have to act because pass would be a bigger distortion than bidding something.

Since pass and dbl are not options, you're left with just two bids...

2NT: should show the balanced 15-17 (with 18-19 you bid 3♥ or 3NT).
2♠: lies about shape (should be a reverse with 54) but not about the stopper.

I'd bid 2NT or 2♠ depending on how I feel that day.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I switched to takeout doubles by both partners after 1NT bids some time ago.

It apparently gets me more good doubled contracts and also helps to find playable contracts 'when' we should not defend with a majority of the points and the other side holidng 8/9 trumps at the two level.

How do you play a 6-10 range 1NT reply to 1m? Opener raising with a strong NT range would often find you with 6-8HCP and passing would sometimes find you with 9-10HCP?

My weak NT play using KS defined 1m-1NT as 'no game' oppoisite a strong NT.

Regards,
Robert

[SoTired]

1) Pass cannot show a balanced min since you would have opened 1N with that
2) Without agreement, dbl is penalty in this situation sitting behind bidder
3) IMHO, with all the overbidders out there, I would not be so quick to eliminate penalty dbl in this situation
4) Not sure that 2HX would be playable regardless of pard's 3-card heart holding

Pass would show an unbalanced min or something like this. Still, I bid 2S, which is not one of the choices.

[kgr]

Jlall, on Dec 12 2006, 07:16 PM, said:

I really think it's much more useful for a double to show this type of hand playing weak NT (though I don't play it as pen even playing strong NT). Since you say X is for penalty in your system, I would bid 2N I guess.

agree....only i would bid 2S

[hatchett]

I think you should play double as negative in this position. I would expect a more distributional hand for 2♠.

[mikeh]

2♠, if intended to suggest playing in that suit, is silly. Partner lacks 4 cards in the suit, the lead is coming through whatever ♥ card(s) he has, and the long trump suit is getting tapped.

Furthermore, it suggests a radically different hand: at a minimum a 4=5 in the pointed suits, such that partner will bid 3♦ rather than 3♣ if he is 3=5 in the minors, reserving 3♣ for a 6 card suit, since you will normally lack 3+♣s.

My suggestion: give up the penalty meaning of double. Trust me, you won't miss it (often). Double should describe this hand: a strong notrump with no clear direction. Partner will (usually) go right: bidding 2N with a balanced minimum with (or without, unfortunately) a ♥ stop, 3N with a max and a stop, 3♥ with a max and no stop, and 3minor if he wants to play 3minor.

If this double is not yet available, pass. You cannot risk double and bidding 2N is too high a risk given that partner may have a hand on which he would have passed a strong notrump, and (even more a problem) may have a hand on which he has to bid 3N, even tho neither player has the remotest semblance of a stopper (ok, he could and probably should bid 3♥ then, and you get to the wondrous spot of 4minor with the defence marked). Thank god it is imps, where pass rates to lose only a few imps.... at mps, we might be dealing with a disaster in that the auction might have gone 1N 3N with a ♠ lead.

[cherdano]

If you play weak NT, I think it is necessary to define many doubles by opener as strong NT. They aren't very pretty, but it's a price you have to pay for the advantages of weak NT.
Unfortunately, most people seem more interested in discussing whether weak NT is inferior or superior, instead of discussing how it changes competitive auctions.

[the hog]

X for takeout. This treatment is far more useful than a penalty X. When have you had a penalty X that you haven't picked up after pd reopened with a X with short Hearts?
As MikeH points out 2S is insane. Pd has denied 4S.

[xx1943]

hotShot, on Dec 12 2006, 04:27 PM, said:

Why is 2♠ not a possible choice?
...........................

Sry
You are rite that is a good alternative, but I forgot it.
2♠ seems me the best bid. Even better than my suggested pass.

Ty for your help.

Al

[the hog]

If you are not prepared to listen to the arguments as to why 2S is a poor bid, why do you bother asking?

[whereagles]

Sometimes the matter isn't to find a fit but to describe your hand. And 2♠ does a pretty ok job in that respect.

[the hog]

Really Whereagles? A 2S bid on a 4-4 hand hardly does an "ok job" of describing this hand. 2S shows long Ds and 4S. A X is more appropriate.

[whereagles]

Of course a dbl is more appropriate. But that bid isn't available. Given the circumstances, 2♠ and 2NT are definitely the lesser evils.

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on Dec 14 2006, 04:57 PM, said:

Really Whereagles? A 2S bid on a 4-4 hand hardly does an "ok job" of describing this hand. 2S shows long Ds and 4S. A X is more appropriate.

Yes, but the original poster plays X as penalty.

As many have stated you either have to give up the penalty double here, playing it as card showing,negative or whatever..ie extras, which this hand has since it is a 15-17 NT opening, or you have to pass (YUCK) or you can see if you can find some bid to show some extra strength but no ♥ stopper and the available bid just happens to be 2♠.

However, lets reverse the ♥ & ♠ and assume that the overcall was 2♠, then there is no available 2 level bid to describe this hand, unless willing to show point count with a 2N bid not guaranteeing a stopper and that looks rather risky if there's no good other place to play at the 3 level if ♥ isn't stopped.

So we see why a strength showing negative double here makes lots of sense.

.. neilkaz ..

[jdeegan]

Yuck! Pass because I don't see ANY really good bid.

2♠ hoping for the 4-3 fit might work out, but the tap is in the wrong hand, and I don't see any likely loser to discard on the third round of hearts. Partner hardly gurantees three spades with his 1NT response.

Dbl for penalties?? Well, I just don't have one.

Dbl for take out? Even if we played that treatment, the only 'unbid' suit is clubs, and I only have three. What are you going to do over pard's 3♣ response?

2NT? Really now.

Pass? It advertises about a king less than I actually hold, but so what? At least it leaves open some winning auctions. Partner might have an action double with some heart length and a few cards; I'll pass. He might bid 2NT which I'll happily raise to three. If he freely bids 3♣, I'll probably pass, but at least we will be in the right strain. If he passes, so what? We stand to go plus, and that shouldn't be a disaster.