[mike777]

I know I have asked this question but not sure I ever got an answer.

What do the Muslim/Arabs/Iran want from Israel and why does not Israel just give it to them.

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

I guess it reminds me of our war on terror, we are at war but I have no idea what the other side really wants, who we should talk to, and how we give it to them.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

They want to destruct Israel. "Why not just give it to them"?

I'd like to know what your reply would be if they wanted to wipe out USA.

"Just give it to them"?

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Jul 17 2006, 12:28 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

They want to destruct Israel. "Why not just give it to them"?

I'd like to know what your reply would be if they wanted to wipe out USA.

"Just give it to them"?

Roland

This is really unclear, if true why does the world not know this.

I say this becuase all I hear from Europe and many parts of the world is that Israel is not being proportional it in it's response. Again this makes no sense.
If they want to destroy the country how can the response be too much?
Why is this not repeated over and over, they want to destroy Israel. Are you saying Muslims the world over want to do this or would not care one way or the other or what?

I do not argue that you are wrong in what they want, only this seems unclear to almost the whole world. Are you sure this is what they want and why do so many billions seem not to know this?

[luke warm]

Walddk, on Jul 17 2006, 12:28 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

They want to destruct Israel. "Why not just give it to them"?

I'd like to know what your reply would be if they wanted to wipe out USA.

"Just give it to them"?

Roland

mike's style of argumentation, a style i wish i was better at, is to wait for the answer to a difficult question (an answer he already knows) and let it (the answer) show the logical/intellectual bankruptcy inherent in the premise

iran wants the world to know that they control what happens in the mideast... syria is just a puppet of iran, dancing on the strings of its master... there will never be any permanent peace as long as iran is allowed this latitude... imo, israel's next step is to bomb damascus, probably as they're bombing lebanon (meaning, surgical strikes meant to destabilize military/economic resources)

but i honestly see no remedy short of an all out war on iran.. this is an impossibility *unless* nuclear weapons are used... i don't see that happening, which means that even when this current crisis ends another will take its place

[mike777]

Again the G-8 just asked for Israel to exercise restraint. If someone is trying wipe out a country and destroy it as Roland argues why does not the G-8 say that and say how can we help you Israel, I do not hear that being repeated in a clear fashion. I do not hear the Danish saying that but perhaps I missed that Danish announcement?

[Walddk]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

Walddk, on Jul 17 2006, 12:28 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

They want to destruct Israel. "Why not just give it to them"?

I'd like to know what your reply would be if they wanted to wipe out USA.

"Just give it to them"?

Roland

This is really unclear, if true why does the world not know this.

I say this becuase all I hear from Europe and many parts of the world is that Israel is not being proportional it in it's response. Again this makes no sense.
If they want to destroy the country how can the response be too much?
Why is this not repeated over and over, they want to destroy Israel. Are you saying Muslims the world over want to do this or would not care one way or the other or what?

I do not argue that you are wrong in what they want, only this seems unclear to almost the whole world. Are you sure this is what they want and why do so many billions seem not to know this?

I don't really know how ignorant you are, or if you are trying to provoke. You may not know what Hamas and Hezbollah stand for, but rest assured that most people do. Let's take Hamas first:

"Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Israel, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan".

Let's move on to Hezbollah:

"Hezbollah's political platform has consistently called for the destruction of Israel".

Are you saying that you didn't know that? It's no crime to be ignorant, but at least you know it now.

Is it something I make up? Look for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Roland

[Walddk]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:42 PM, said:

I do not hear the Danish saying that but perhaps I missed that Danish announcement?

You seem to be missing something then. The Danish policy is that Israel should be recognized as a free an independent state, and Denmark supports negotations in order to achieve a peaceful solution to the conflict in the Middle East.

However, because Hamas and Hezbollah are considered terrorist organizations by the Danish government, and because Denmark is against negotiations with terrorists, this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

In other words: exactly the same policy as USA's.

Hope this makes it clear.

Roland

[mike777]

Again Roland I understand you are trying to be clear but yes this is still not clear.

Speaking of Hamas and Hezbollah is just like on the news. They make it impersonal as if these are aliens who just dropped in from Pluto. Again this makes no sense.

You did not answer my question directly, who is trying to destroy Israel.
Hezbollah are Lebonese yes, the are in the government yes, they are not aliens from Pluto. Who is supporting these groups, morally, in arms, money and sympathy. Are they not just as guilty in wanting to destroy Israel?

I repeat the G-8 says Israel needs to restrain itself as does most of Europe. This does not sound like anyone thinks anyone is trying to destroy Israel.

You might be right but you seem to miss my point, no one or almost no one including Denmark seems to think this?

If someone is trying to destroy Israel who is? Please be specific...Hezballoh and Hamas are political parties...not an answer to my question.

Are you suggesting millions of Muslims are?
Tens of millions of Muslims are?
Hundreds of millions of Mulsims are?

I do not hear the news saying this or the G-8 or Denmark, or Europe?

[luke warm]

in an earlier thread richard said that it's his opinion that if this conflict spreads/intensifies he doesn't believe egypt will declare *for* israel...

i think, barring the return of 3 relatively healthy israeli soldiers, the world is guaranteed an intensifying of this conflict... that being said, when/if it happens i think that egypy and jordan will both come in on the side of israel, at least tacitly...

as an aside to roland, read my earlier post... you are close to being correct when you wondered if mike's intention was to provoke... he does it quite well

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 08:20 PM, said:

I know I have asked this question but not sure I ever got an answer.

What do the Muslim/Arabs/Iran want from Israel and why does not Israel just give it to them.

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

I guess it reminds me of our war on terror, we are at war but I have no idea what the other side really wants, who we should talk to, and how we give it to them.

You (and Roland) are making a very common mistake by generalizing Hamas and Hezbollah to apply to the entire Arab world. The Middle East is a large and complicated place. Over simplification doesn't help anything.

Hezbollah was orginally founded back in the early 1980s as a military organization dedicated to forcing Israel out of Lebanon. Its "charter" has grown significantly since then. At this point in time, Hezbollah is officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah is a major player in the region because they are radical and very competent. Equally significant, Hezbollah was born out of conflict. The group had its genesis in the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The latest rounds of Israeli military strikes against the Beruit will probably strengthen the organization

Hamas is political movement that grew out of the muslim bortherhood. Much like the IRA, Hamas includes both military and civilian wings. Like Hezbollah, Hamas is officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel. However, the organization has been willing to abide to long term cease fires.

The only real solution in dealing with Hamas and Hezbollah is finding some way to stablize the region and provide opportunities for economic growth. The Israeli's are welcome to try to wage war on an entire religion. They'll probably do quite well, up until the day that some one nukes Haifa and/or Tel Aviv. At the rate things are going, I expect to see the Israeli's lose a major population center within the next 15 years.

[hrothgar]

deleted

[mike777]

Walddk, on Jul 17 2006, 12:58 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 07:42 PM, said:

I do not hear the Danish saying that  but perhaps I missed that Danish announcement?

You seem to be missing something then. The Danish policy is that Israel should be recognized as a free an independent state, and Denmark supports negotations in order to achieve a peaceful solution to the conflict in the Middle East.

However, because Hamas and Hezbollah are considered terrorist organizations by the Danish government, and because Denmark is against negotiations with terrorists, this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

In other words: exactly the same policy as USA's.

Hope this makes it clear.

Roland

Sigh, I do not know how I can ask this any clearer Roland. If Denmark really thinks Millions and millions are trying to destroy Israel today what is Denmark's response?

Denmark want to chat while someone is trying to destory Israel? This is a response?

A useless press release? Where are the troops, planes, tanks, young boys and girls sent to defend Israel? Where are the millions marching in support?

Where is the press release saying we stand with you in your time of need?

Again I argue that Billions not millions seem to not believe that millions are trying to destroy Israel today or they do not care that much....which makes them just as guilty.

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Jul 17 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 08:20 PM, said:

I know I have asked this question but not sure I ever got an answer.

What do the Muslim/Arabs/Iran want from Israel and why does not Israel just give it to them.

I hear all this talk about Hamas, Hezzlabah, etc but what do they want and why not just give it to them?

I guess it reminds me of our war on terror, we are at war but I have no idea what the other side really wants, who we should talk to, and how we give it to them.

You (and Roland) are making a very common mistake by generalizing Hamas and Hezbollah to apply to the entire Arab world. The Middle East is a large and complicated place. Over simplification doesn't help anything.

Hezbollah was orginally founded back in the early 1980s as a military organization dedicated to forcing Israel out of Lebanon. Its "charter" has grown significantly since then. At this point in time, Hezbollah is officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah is a major player in the region because they are radical and very competent. Equally significant, Hezbollah was born out of conflict. The group had its genesis in the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The latest rounds of Israeli military strikes against the Beruit will probably strengthen the organization

Hamas is political movement that grew out of the muslim bortherhood. Much like the IRA, Hamas includes both military and civilian wings. Like Hezbollah, Hamas is officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel. However, the organization has been willing to abide to long term cease fires.

The only real solution in dealing with Hamas and Hezbollah is finding some way to stablize the region and provide opportunities for economic growth. The Israeli's are welcome to try to wage war on an entire religion. They'll probably do quite well, up until the day that some one nukes Haifa and/or Tel Aviv. At the rate things are going, I expect to see the Israeli's lose a major population center within the next 15 years.

Again this makes Hezbollah sound like a bunch of aliens who just dropped in from Pluto.

Are you saying the Muslim world is rushing to Israel's defense?
Are you saying they want Hezbollah to win or lose
Or do they just not care and and therefore are guilty as people die and die and they just do not care?

Let me give a simple example:

I morally support my neighbor killing my other neighbor, I will send you money and moral support, but that makes me an innocent civilian? It is unfair if anyone tries to bomb my house and kill me?

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Jul 17 2006, 01:05 PM, said:

luke warm, on Jul 17 2006, 09:00 PM, said:

as an aside to roland, read my earlier post... you are close to being correct when you wondered if mike's intention was to provoke... he does it quite well

**** deleted also ************

he's neither... his questions are genuine, designed to get people to think deeper than the cnn news desk... let me rephrase what i see as his question

if peace in the mideast is the goal, why doesn't israel simply negotiate with the ones who are the most vocal/martial, so as to insure this peace? why not give them what they ask for, thereby building a lasting peace in the region? if such an act by israel will not have the desired effect, why not? is there some deeper reason? and if there is, why do we not hear this from other quarters, such as (an example country, since roland was posting) denmark?

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Jul 17 2006, 08:03 PM, said:

You (and Roland) are making a very common mistake by generalizing Hamas and Hezbollah to apply to the entire Arab world.

You have a tasteless habit of trying to put words into people's mouths. Where was it I was generalizing about Hamas and Hezbollah and the whole Arab world?

I merely explained what the two organizations stand for, with reference through two links. If you quote people, then at least quote them accurately and do not state something they did not say.

Roland

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 09:09 PM, said:

Again this makes Hezbollah sound like a bunch of aliens who just dropped in from Pluto.

Are you saying the Muslim world is rushing to Israel defense?
Are you saying they want Hezbollah to win or lose
Or do they just not care and and therefore are guilty as people die and die and they just do not care?

Let me give a simple example:

I morally support my neighbor killing my other neighbor, I will send you money and moral support, but that makes me an innoncent civilian?  It is unfair if anyone tries to bomb my house and kill me?

Spare me the crap: The Israelis are no shrinking violets who only want to be left in peace.

The country was founded by disposing the local inhabitants. The Israelis have been in engaging in widespread ethnic cleansing since at least 1948. Unfortunately for them, this type of neo-colonialism doesn't work nearly so well ever since the natives got AK-47s.

The following URL provides a detailed breakdown of of immigration into Israel since 1948.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...y_country2.html

However, here are a few statistics key statistics.

Between 1882 and 1947 the number of Jews living in Palestine increased from 24,000 to 543,000. Between 1948 and 1953, a further 711,000 people immigrated. By 1990, the Jewish population had increased to 4.5 million. During the 1990s, almost 900,000 more people emigrated to Israel.

In conjunction with this, the Israeli government offered massive tax incentives for people to settle in the occupied territories.
Do you understand where some of the resentment is coming from?

[mike777]

Let's not put up a strawman here and talk about resentment or justification.

I do not bring up either subject.

I only asked what do they want and why not give it to them?

If both sides are trying to destroy/defend each other , ok, I am not saying they are not justified or do not have cause. I will let others argue what Israel really wants.

I am only asking what do they want?

If they are trying to destroy each other, why does the media not just say that and repeat it over and over. The G-8, Europe and everyone else seem to dance around this issue with their heads in the sand and never bring it up.

If you hear this quote on the news or newspapers please post it hear, we need to have it made clear!

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 09:40 PM, said:

Let's not put up a strawman here and talk about resentment or justification.

I do not bring up either subject.

I only asked what do they want and why not give it to them?

If both sides are trying to destroy/defend  each other , ok, I am not saying they are not justified or do not have cause. I will let others argue what Israel really wants.

I am only asking what do they want?

And I return to my original point:

Who is this "they" that you are talking about?

The views of a shop keeper in Morocco are likely to be very different than that of Palestinian who grew in the Sabra or Shatila refugee camps. The kleptocratic fascists who run Syria have very different interests than local Hamas leaders in Gaza.

One of the key problems in the area is that power is extremely diffuse. In particular, the political leadership in Palestine and Lebanon doesn't have a monopoly on the use of force. Instead, you have lots of different actors with very different agendas and lots of heavy weapons.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Jul 17 2006, 08:06 PM, said:

A useless press release? Where are the troops, planes, tanks, young boys and girls sent to defend Israel? Where are the millions marching in support?

We don't need to march to support Israel. History has shown that the Israelis are quite capable of defending themselves. What they do need, however, is moral and financial support.

Moral support is easy, but some of us have also been supporting Israel financially for decades. By visiting the country, by living in the country, by donating Danish kroner, US$ or whatever.

Again, Denmark is no different from the USA. You may disagree with all this, but they are facts.

Roland

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Jul 17 2006, 01:32 PM, said:

Do you understand where some of the resentment is coming from?

assume for the sake of argument that mike understands... you still didn't answer his question, which was - what do hamas and hezbollah want?

i have my own questions, though... israel withdrew from gaza, they withdrew from lebanon, they withdrew from the golan heights... palastine formed a government, lebanon formed a government, and then hamas decided to go into israel, kill 6 or so soldiers, kidnapped one... hezbollah, acting no doubt at the behest of tehran and/or damascus, then went into israel and kidnapped 2 more soldiers...

were not both actions acts of war? i personally wish israel would just tell syria to see to it that hezbollah is disarmed or face the consequences... i wish the lebanese gov't would, even with the help of troops from other nations, take by force their southern border from hezbollah...

here is the reason this can't be done... lebanon's constitution requires that its cabinet be made up of 50% christian and 50% muslim members.. the muslim members must be divided 50% shite and 50% sunni.. should the lebanese gov't make a move to disarm hezbollah, there's a 99.99% chance that muslim cabinet members would resign, effectively bringing the gov't to a halt... so in that sense, israel is correct when it says that the lebanese gov't is to blame for what's happening

if it's peace that's needed in the region, it seems to me that those who favor that peace must disarm those who do not... impossible? yes it is... there are only 3 countries who want such peace, and 2 of them do not have the internal fortitude to take a stand... they fear their own people more than they desire to do what's needed... there are two countries in that region who are responsible for fostering almost all of the discord... axis of evil is an apt name, imo