[AceOfHeart]

playing 2/1

1♦ P 1♥ P
2♣p3♥ p

[mr1303]

The answer is it depends.

If you play 1D P 2H as a weak jump shift, 3H on the auction you described is forcing.

If you play 1D P 2H as something else, so that weak hands with hearts go via

1D 1H
2C 2H

then 3H is invitational.

[P_Marlowe]

mr1303, on Feb 20 2006, 04:25 AM, said:

The answer is it depends.

If you play 1D P 2H as a weak jump shift, 3H on the auction you described is forcing.

<snip>

depends on, how weak a weak jump shift can be,
if very weak, 3H is still only inv.

Withkind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

First of all I was going to say that, in standard, it's invitational. It's certainly 6+ hearts, invitational in Acol. Game forces start with FSF.

Then I decided that I've never played 2/1 the American way and so I didn't know.
Then I decided it should be the same as BBO advanced, so I looked up BBO advanced and it wasn't there.
Then I decided it should be the same as in Standard American, so I looked at Richard Pavlicek's excellent website, and that said that invites should go via 4th suit, and a jump was forcing.

Then I was going to make the combined point about if you play constructive WJS (4-8 ish) then it is forcing, but if you play WJS as super-pre-emptive it isn't, but someone else has already made that point.

So this whole post is a complete waste of time and I shall get back to work.

[whereagles]

In Europe, that jump tends to be taken as invitational. In the US, the tendency is to be forcing, slammish hand.

[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 20 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

First of all I was going to say that, in standard, it's invitational. It's certainly 6+ hearts, invitational in Acol. Game forces start with FSF.
(...)
Then I decided it should be the same as in Standard American, so I looked at Richard Pavlicek's excellent website, and that said that invites should go via 4th suit, and a jump was forcing.

Bad luck for you This is, as far as I know, the only agreement where Pavlicek-standard substantially deviates from standard american (he agrees it isn't standard, but thinks it is superior).

Arend

[pbleighton]

"In the US, the tendency is to be forcing, slammish hand."

Most where I live (in the U.S.) play it as invitational.

Peter

[Codo]

I am a Pavlicek fan, so I voted for the "superior" line. I am not sure, what will happen more often (inv. or GF) in real life here where I live...

[whereagles]

pbleighton, on Feb 20 2006, 02:51 PM, said:

"In the US, the tendency is to be forcing, slammish hand."

Most where I live (in the U.S.) play it as invitational.

Peter

Oh?

Zie end is nigh!

[han]

Invitational is standard, but see Arend's new suit invitational thread for another alternative approach.

[mikeh]

This jump was forcing 30 years ago in the usa (and canada). It is generally invitational now, and is so even if you play weak jump shifts. That is because, for most of those I know to play wjs, 6 card ♥ suit hands are : weak (wjs), constructive: 1 then 2♥, invitational: 1 then 3♥ or forcing: 1♥ then 4sf.

I understand (I think) the palivech inversion but that would require me to adopt a form of fsf which was not gf: and I like to keep some things simple: for me all fsf by an uph (I love acronyms) are gf. That is non-standard in eastern scientific (aka somewhat close to BWS) but seems more the norm out here on the western fringes of the continent.

This (at last I come to the point) means that 3♥ is invitational.

[joshs]

6 hearts, INV is standard. As others have pointed out you could play:
1m-2H as 5-8
1H then 2H as 9-11
1H then 3H as forcing
(Or switch the first 2)

Or you can be wierd like pavlicek and do things differently than everyone else (this doesn't mean he is wrong, but lots of his bidding ideas are unusual)

[HeartA]

joshs, on Feb 21 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

6 hearts, INV is standard. As others have pointed out you could play:
1m-2H as 5-8
1H then 2H as 9-11
1H then 3H as forcing
(Or switch the first 2)

Or you can be wierd like pavlicek and do things differently than everyone else (this doesn't mean he is wrong, but lots of his bidding ideas are unusual)

without special agreement (xyz etc), 3♥ shows 6+ ♥ with invitational values.

[Tomi2]

joshs, on Feb 21 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

6 hearts, INV is standard. As others have pointed out you could play:
1m-2H as 5-8
1H then 2H as 9-11
1H then 3H as forcing
(Or switch the first 2)

Or you can be wierd like pavlicek and do things differently than everyone else (this doesn't mean he is wrong, but lots of his bidding ideas are unusual)

my pd and me play something other that works very well

1m - 2M = 9-11 inv
fitst 1M than 2M = non forcing (could be some real weak weak)
fitst 1M than 3M = i want to play 4M or 3NT
first 1M than use checkback => you treat your major as 5 cards and can still invite (usefull if you have 6 hearts and 4 spades and want to hear if your p has a spade fit)
first 1M then use checkback and later jump into 3H = SI in hearts

so wit all 6322 hand 9-11 you bid 2M directly, with all others you first bid 1M and listen to what your partner does

[luis]

Since fourth suit is game forcing bidding 2♠ and then 3♥ is game forcing and strong.
Then 3♥ is invitational.

Luis