[mike777]

At the risk of being STONED by forum members, anyone for passing 13 hcp unbalanced hands with hcp in very short major suits in first and second seat?

[han]

Mike, I don't think that there is anything wrong with passing this hand in first or second seat. I don't think that bidding is wrong either, it depends on partnership style.

Microcap, I'm relieved that it was indeed humor, that was a scary post you made there! I apologise for my initial response, I didn't get the joke.

[whereagles]

luis, on Feb 7 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

Your hand is limited by the 2♣ bid you can't bid past 4♥.

Limited by 2♣? You mean.. limited to 18 hcp??? If something, it's 2NT that limits the hand to 12-13, not 2♣. Besides, if the 2♥ bid is FSF game-forcing, the 2NT bid can go up to 18.

[whereagles]

Hannie, on Feb 7 2006, 07:44 PM, said:

You are not right, you are wrong for several reasons. Also, I don't think that your partner did anything wrong.

What is your partner to do with his hand, this 5512 11-count? Pass 2C? Bid 2NT? How do you suggest getting to 4H, the right contract?

Well, I for one think pard did everything wrong. And I'm not joking.

1. Pard used FSF and then shoot at game. That must show at least SOME slam interest, since without it pard would/should have bid 4♥ instead of FSF. And I don't buy that "4♥ is a splinter in support of clubs" because that bypasses 3NT.

2. Pard didn't care for what you would think he has. He should have thought such unusual bidding might cause confusion and steer away from that.

3. The correct bid is not 2♥, it's 2♠. YES, TWO SPADES. That's the percentage bid that is more likely to keep you out of trouble in the long run. There is no sane way to reach 4♥ on this likely misfit. It requires taking a flyer, which may work.. or not. In this case it does, but that's arguing with results to me.

If microcap was the one with the 55 major, bid the way his pard did and found him with a lousy 2254, all of you would have given him the blame.

I know I'm alone, but I am also sure I'm right.

[awm]

Partner's bidding does leave something to be desired. On the other hand, partner has a legitimate problem. What's the right bid on a 5-5 majors 11-count opposite 1♦-1♠-2♣ (if you open super-light, better make it a twelve count)? It seems like the options are:

(1) Correct to 2♦ with doubleton. However, this risks missing even a nine card heart fit if partner has some pattern like 1444 or 0454. It also sounds pretty weak, and you won't get to game with 14-15 opposite 11, which might be okay some of the time, but probably not if partner has three card hearts.

(2) Rebid 2♠. Again you risk playing in an awful spot if partner has 1444, 0454, or 1354. This also undersells the values somewhat (no way partner is bidding on with 14-15 high and singleton spade).

(3) Rebid 2NT. This is perhaps the right "value bid" and partner might pattern out on the way to game (if you have a game). However, it might get you to some ugly misfitting 3NT games on 24-25 combined, and also will miss a heart fit when partner passes with a minimum 1444, 0454, 1354 hand (these hands may make 4♥, and in any case will probably play better in 3♥ than 2NT).

(4) Rebid 2♥, 4th suit game force. If this is forcing to game, it's something of an overbid. You have only 11, and partner could have 12 (or even less if you open aggressively). There's no known fit, and some indications of misfit. Of course, you're now very likely to get to the "best game" especially if you follow-up with 3♥, but there's also some risk that partner overbids to slam (or at least 5♥) on some hands.

(5) Rebid 3♥. If this is "invitational with 5-5 majors" then it's almost a perfect bid (although you still lose on the really ugly misfits where 3♥/3♠ don't play well). But does everyone play this bid as 5-5 majors invite? I'm not sure this is standard, and while it's a reasonable agreement I bet a lot of established partnerships don't play it this way, or haven't discussed it. Without discussion, I'd be scared to make this bid as it could be interpreted as anything from natural and weak to natural and game force to a splinter in support of clubs.

As for opener's bidding, I'd pass 4♥. Even if partner has something like:

AQJxxx
AKxxx
x
x

Slam still requires the 3-2 heart break and probably a 4-2 spade break as well. This is likely a bit better than 50%, but not much better. I think that 4♥ (fast arrival) should show a weaker hand than 3♥, so this example is very maximum. Partner could easily have two small clubs in which case even the five level is not very safe. I agree that partner's actual hand is weaker than expected. Nonetheless there's plenty of blame to go around on this hand.

[luis]

mike777, on Feb 7 2006, 08:20 PM, said:

At the risk of being STONED by forum members, anyone for passing 13 hcp unbalanced hands with hcp in very short major suits in first and second seat?

I throw one stone :-)

Luis

[Chamaco]

joshs, on Feb 7 2006, 01:34 AM, said:

I am expecting a 5-5-x-x shape and an absolute minimum game force but good suits.
e.g. AQJxx AJTxx x xx
Josh

I don't know whether it is standard or not, but with such a GF 2-suiter for responder, I JUMPbid naturally the 4th suit (3H over opener's 2C rebid).

[42]

Chamaco, on Feb 8 2006, 12:03 PM, said:

joshs, on Feb 7 2006, 01:34 AM, said:

I am expecting a 5-5-x-x shape and an absolute minimum game force but good suits.
e.g. AQJxx AJTxx x xx
Josh

I don't know whether it is standard or not, but with such a GF 2-suiter for responder, I JUMPbid naturally the 4th suit (3H over opener's 2C rebid).

I know a jumpbid to 4th suit as Splinter for the 3rd suit. But neither have I an idea whether this is standard or not.

[whereagles]

awm, that was a very good analysis and breakdown of the possibilities. I hadn't noticed the residue in the minors was 2-1, which makes a preference bid of 2♦ more attractive than 2♠. Besides, it allows pard to make a final move with 2♥ or 2♠ if he has that 16-17 hand which makes game a good bet.

Let me just make 2 comments.

1. Given the auction warns of likely misfit, I think it's reasonable to miss a good game or two on occasion in order to settle down in a safe spot. That's why I think anything above 2♠ is simply unwarranted optimism. Even 2NT.

2. If 3♥ were to be an invitational 55, I would say good intermediates or fillers in the minors are mandatory, in order to have a source of tricks in case pard bids 3NT. The actual hand comes short of that.

[microcap]

This game is funny--I have posted other hands that I thought were more interesting or complex and gotten far fewer and less thoughtful responses!

Hannie--sorry for forgetting a smiley face icon on that one post. Here is an extra one for you.

I was pleased with whereagles post, because while I am happy to take the brunt of the blame, it just didn't seem that it was so clear cut to me, and he was the first to point out that I had a legitimate point. Awm's post also illustrates the problems here.

And for the final word, I hereby post Rex's analysis. For those of you that don't know him, Rex knows more about bidding than anyone alive. He also can't count to 13 if you spot him one through eleven!

"Hello Jay,

There are a lot of helpful answers on the Forum.

It is interesting as you may remember that we just agreed, that is I asked
you, what a jump in the 4th suit is. You said 5-5 and strong. OK we have
an agreement. So how do you bid partner's hand?

I assume partner was playing that a jump in the 4th suit was a splinter for
your second suit and likely a double jump is EKCB for clubs.

One of the forum folks mentioned that a jump in the fourth suit should be
non-forcing 5-5. I think that and the splinter bid are the two likely
agreements. As I said I think partner played the splinter.

Is the jump to game weaker than the rebidding 3H? I think everyone in the
forum thought so. BUT that all depends on whether you play fast arrival or
picture bids. If I have no way to show a strong two suiter as a jump in the
fourth suit is not forcing or does not show H than the style I adopt
determines what the jump means. Picture bidders would jump to 4H with a
strong hand likely 6-5 or great 5-5 to describe the hand. With less they do
not jump. Fast arrival folks jump to game with less and go slow with better
hands. Neither is right or wrong but a question of agreement. As I do not
think fast arrival is standard it is just another area that needs to be
discussed.

Did you read the Bidding Lab in the Feb Bulletin? The convention there
covers this hand! 1D-3H showing 10-12 and 5-5 in the majors NF.
discussed, 1m-2H to show 5+S and 4+H, after himself and his partner. As I
have seen folks locally playing it and calling it "reverse Flannery" 2H I
would say it is not completely original.

All in all this hand shows why you need agreements. Partner thought he had
made a limit bid with 4H and you thought he had not.

This type of hand is a reason not to play FSF to game. 1D-1S-2C-2H-2NT-3H
NF describes this well. This is the style played by Pavlicek. Note that he
plays 1D-1S-2C-3H as forcing with 5-5 or 6-4 AND he marks this as an unusual
treatment.

Rex"

[000002]

1\1♦-1♠-2♣-4♥,this emphasize length and weakness,not strength;
2\1♦-1♠-2♣-4♥ this is natural,not splinter
3\1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥-2nt-4♥,it does NOT emphasize strength too
4\because 2nt guarantee one major honor, 4♥ leap deny a slam seeking unless i have certain 3cards honor.

my english is poor ,if anyone interest it i would try to interpret.