BBO Discussion Forums: Tough to bid - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Tough to bid

Poll: Tough to bid (37 member(s) have cast votes)

Your call as West:

  1. Pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Double (2 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  3. 2S (28 votes [75.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.68%

  4. 3H (2 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  5. 3S (3 votes [8.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.11%

  6. 4S (2 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  7. Other (please explain) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,889
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-16, 08:06

MP.


Playing 2/1, 1NT 15-17, without Negative Free Bids (a recent discussion comes to mind).
Your partner's 1♣ opening is semi-natural (could be 2-cards in 4=4=3=2), probably balanced 12-14 or 18-19.
RHO interferes 2♥, alerted and explained as natural 9-12 HCP (fashionable these days).

Your call now as West? Please answer in the poll and comment here mentioning any related agreements.

North is itching to raise hearts after your call, and they won't stop before game. How do you see things proceeding?
0

#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,197
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-January-16, 09:05

2♠ F1, I will bid 5♣ over 4♥ which should be 6-4 or 7-4, partner will now love his hand.

This is not what I would bid playing what I play where the club shows 4 (3♠ fit) and in fact we'd open 1N with the E hand.
0

#3 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,020
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2020-January-16, 09:23

2S is clear.

Over 4H, I think east has a 4S call. His xxx in hearts is actually a great holding if North bids 4H, since it marks partnervwith at most one heart loser, and all of our cards are working. While east has not a lot of hcp, he has 5 controls.

Over 4S, west has, I think, a5C try, and now slam will be reached on momentum.

Were east to chicken out and pass 4H, west should bid 4S, not 5C, and now east will be regretting his pass but be unable to bid again. West would bid 4S with a wide variety of hands and expresses no slam interest in doing so.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,197
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-January-16, 09:55

 mikeh, on 2020-January-16, 09:23, said:

2S is clear.

Over 4H, I think east has a 4S call. His xxx in hearts is actually a great holding if North bids 4H, since it marks partnervwith at most one heart loser, and all of our cards are working. While east has not a lot of hcp, he has 5 controls.

Over 4S, west has, I think, a5C try, and now slam will be reached on momentum.

Were east to chicken out and pass 4H, west should bid 4S, not 5C, and now east will be regretting his pass but be unable to bid again. West would bid 4S with a wide variety of hands and expresses no slam interest in doing so.


I disagree profoundly with Mike, x, xxx, Axx, AJ10xxx is a decent grand, there is an issue if partner has nothing in spades and a club suit.
0

#5 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,020
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2020-January-16, 10:11

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-16, 09:55, said:

I disagree profoundly with Mike, x, xxx, Axx, AJ10xxx is a decent grand, there is an issue if partner has nothing in spades and a club suit.

Lol. Of course bidding 5C could work, although reaching grand is far from clear, when you give east hands like that. However, this is mps bid 5C and catch partnervwith xx Kxx KQx AJxxx


I’m happy to see you in 5C. I like winning boards.


Anyway, the argument is silly for reasons beyond the absurdity of making up magic hands. East should bid 4S on the actual hand.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,197
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-January-16, 10:22

 mikeh, on 2020-January-16, 10:11, said:

Lol. Of course bidding 5C could work, although reaching grand is far from clear, when you give east hands like that. However, this is mps bid 5C and catch partnervwith xx Kxx KQx AJxxx


I’m happy to see you in 5C. I like winning boards.


Anyway, the argument is silly for reasons beyond the absurdity of making up magic hands. East should bid 4S on the actual hand.


And partner at MPs will most likely bid 5♠ with that, at MPs particularly I think you're more likely to be 7-4 than 6-4 to bid like that if you don't have ♦A.

On the hand I gave, you might not be in 7, but you will be in 6 which beat 4♠ last time I checked.
0

#7 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,103
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2020-January-16, 11:03

2S looks obvious, but what would a 3S bid mean? Is it a fit-jump? And if so, what suit lengths does it promise?
0

#8 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,889
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-16, 11:23

 Tramticket, on 2020-January-16, 11:03, said:

2S looks obvious, but what would a 3S bid mean? Is it a fit-jump? And if so, what suit lengths does it promise?


Not a fit-jump, just moderately constructive and probably 7-card (make the K♣ a singleton heart and you're in the ballpark).
But if you see space to redefine it while retaining normal 2S and 4S then go ahead.
0

#9 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,020
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2020-January-16, 11:31

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-16, 10:22, said:

And partner at MPs will most likely bid 5♠ with that, at MPs particularly I think you're more likely to be 7-4 than 6-4 to bid like that if you don't have ♦A.

On the hand I gave, you might not be in 7, but you will be in 6 which beat 4♠ last time I checked.

When one is in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. With, say,Axxxx x Kx KQxxx. One bids 2S then 5C and woebetide a partner who corrects to 5S.

Stop fantasizing hands to justify your bidding. Yes, they may exist but in the real world one plays percentages. In particular, if the opps have jammed one’s auction, one does not assume magic cards.

In the context of this hand, that means that one settles for 4S here, rather than chasing a possible 6C.

If west has a hand that wants to be in 4S opposite xx he should bid 4S, precisely because no competent east is pulling 5C to 5S on xx. Of course, here, west prefers 4S to 5C even in the unlikely event that partner has a stiff spade. x Kxx KQxx AJxxx. 4S out scores 5C most of the time. My point is not that I am playing partner for any particular hand. I am simply playing the odds, especially given the form of scoring. You made a poor choice of suggesting west pretend he had 5 spades and now you’re digging in to justify the call.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#10 User is offline   KingCovert 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 258
  • Joined: 2019-May-25

Posted 2020-January-16, 12:52

I think it's important for both of you (Mikeh and CyberYeti) to consider that most people aren't going to open this hand 1♣. It sort of actually skews the way that this auction should go, as opposed to the probable auction. I don't think many sane people are playing partner to have a 12-14 count with 3343 shape and two aces after opening a 1♣. The person who puts partner on this hand sees the cards deeper than I ever will. That being said, I think bidding 2♠ and then 5♣ over 4♥ is insane, but likely to be a little better than it is on this hand. I'd sooner entertain bidding 3♥ or 4♥ and finding a bid of spades afterwards than 2♠ then 5♣.... And I think those lines have obvious problems.

2♠ and 5♣ just does not describe this hand whatsoever. That's purely "resulting".
0

#11 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,889
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-16, 13:33

 KingCovert, on 2020-January-16, 12:52, said:

I think it's important for both of you (Mikeh and CyberYeti) to consider that most people aren't going to open this hand 1♣. It sort of actually skews the way that this auction should go, as opposed to the probable auction.

East was having a bad day and probably misplaced a card, the systemic opening bid is 1♦ of course (even if both minors were 4-4).
0

#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,197
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-January-16, 13:34

 mikeh, on 2020-January-16, 11:31, said:

When one is in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. With, say,Axxxx x Kx KQxxx. One bids 2S then 5C and woebetide a partner who corrects to 5S.

Stop fantasizing hands to justify your bidding. Yes, they may exist but in the real world one plays percentages. In particular, if the opps have jammed one’s auction, one does not assume magic cards.

In the context of this hand, that means that one settles for 4S here, rather than chasing a possible 6C.

If west has a hand that wants to be in 4S opposite xx he should bid 4S, precisely because no competent east is pulling 5C to 5S on xx. Of course, here, west prefers 4S to 5C even in the unlikely event that partner has a stiff spade. x Kxx KQxx AJxxx. 4S out scores 5C most of the time. My point is not that I am playing partner for any particular hand. I am simply playing the odds, especially given the form of scoring. You made a poor choice of suggesting west pretend he had 5 spades and now you’re digging in to justify the call.


It would have to be a VERY VERY empty spade suit for me not to bid 3♠, much weaker than Axxxx I NEVER have 5 clubs on this sequence, and always have 6-7 spades and most often 7 unless I have a much better hand and am looking for 6♣/♠ on power.

This is one of the reasons I really dislike the 2 card club, it tends to massively distort club fit auctions, I don't have an issue with this hand playing a 4 card+ club and can simply bid 3♠ fit.

To KingCovert, what shape do you think he has ? It appears if opps are bidding to the level of the fit that he has 3 hearts, so will either have 3+ spades or 4+ clubs.
0

#13 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,519
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-January-16, 14:18

So basically your 5C bid shows a hand that likely belongs in 4S? Cunning system CY.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
0

#14 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,020
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2020-January-16, 14:37

 KingCovert, on 2020-January-16, 12:52, said:

I think it's important for both of you (Mikeh and CyberYeti) to consider that most people aren't going to open this hand 1♣. It sort of actually skews the way that this auction should go, as opposed to the probable auction. I don't think many sane people are playing partner to have a 12-14 count with 3343 shape and two aces after opening a 1♣. The person who puts partner on this hand sees the cards deeper than I ever will. That being said, I think bidding 2♠ and then 5♣ over 4♥ is insane, but likely to be a little better than it is on this hand. I'd sooner entertain bidding 3♥ or 4♥ and finding a bid of spades afterwards than 2♠ then 5♣.... And I think those lines have obvious problems.

2♠ and 5♣ just does not describe this hand whatsoever. That's purely "resulting".


Fair comment. I probably overlooked that point partly because we were being asked about West's approach to the hand, and he will presumably assume that partner has a 1C opening and partly because in my partnerships, we routinely open that shape 1C, with that range. It meshes well with T-Walsh and 1D promising 5+ or 4=4=4=1. I am not suggesting that my answers are or should be based on that: just explaining why the east hand perhaps didn't catch my attention on that issue. Make it 3=3=3=4 same hand and I stand by my comments.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#15 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2020-January-16, 15:25

pescetom 'MP. Playing 2/1, 1NT 15-17, without Negative Free Bids (a recent discussion comes to mind).Your partner's 1♣ opening is semi-natural (could be 2-cards in 4=4=3=2), probably balanced 12-14 or 18-19.RHO interferes 2♥, alerted and explained as natural 9-12 HCP (fashionable these days). Your call now as West? Please answer in the poll and comment here mentioning any related agreements. North is itching to raise hearts after your call, and they won't stop before game. How do you see things proceeding?'
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 3♠ = FIT. F1. 5+ ♠s and 4+ ♣s.
2. 2♠ = NAT. F1. 5+ ♠s
3. 4♠ = NAT, Although you might agree this to be a FIT, too.
4. 3♥ = CUE. ♣ fit, usually 5+, so inappropriate.
5. Pass/Double = Masochistic.

Guthrie.tech
0

#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,197
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-January-16, 16:00

 cherdano, on 2020-January-16, 14:18, said:

So basically your 5C bid shows a hand that likely belongs in 4S? Cunning system CY.


No, it's simply a part of the "don't play 5♣ unless you have to, might as well bid 6" mentality of MPs, so if partner can stand spades (ie has >1) we play there if not bidding a slam. Now with this hand it's just possible we belong in 4♠ when he has 1, but that's a chance I'm prepared to take.

As I pointed out, partner doesn't even need an opening bid to make a grand if he has a club suit, 6♣ is quite likely here.

What do people play 1♣-(2♥)-2♠-(4♥)-X as ? If it's penalties, I'd expect partner to double with some of the hands I don't want to bid on opposite, I would bid 4♠ but it would take away some of my optimism.

I'm not familiar with what people fit jump with opposite a 2 card club, if 4 claubs and 5+ spades is acceptable then I would make that choice, I assumed you would need 5 clubs.
0

#17 User is offline   apollo1201 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,130
  • Joined: 2014-June-01

Posted 2020-January-16, 16:09

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-16, 16:00, said:

I'm not familiar with what people fit jump with opposite a 2 card club, if 4 claubs and 5+ spades is acceptable then I would make that choice, I assumed you would need 5 clubs.

Aren’t fit jumps supposed to be NF? Then it is insufficient as partner could leave me there.
0

#18 User is offline   KingCovert 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 258
  • Joined: 2019-May-25

Posted 2020-January-16, 17:07

Sincere question, if:

1♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♥ - X is penalty, then, what is:
1♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♥ - P - P - X ???

Also, assuming that most hands with this amount of strength and 5+♣ would probably bid 4♥ with this heart void, and 3♥ without it, if this double isn't penalty, what is it showing? I can't see how it would show any willingness to play in diamonds... But, maybe it's just penalty?
0

#19 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,020
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2020-January-16, 17:57

 KingCovert, on 2020-January-16, 17:07, said:

Sincere question, if:

1♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♥ - X is penalty, then, what is:
1♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♥ - P - P - X ???

Also, assuming that most hands with this amount of strength and 5+♣ would probably bid 4♥ with this heart void, and 3♥ without it, if this double isn't penalty, what is it showing? I can't see how it would show any willingness to play in diamonds... But, maybe it's just penalty?

For most, 2S is merely F1, so 4H does not create a fp situation on either partner, double, by opener, is penalty. Of course, it can be pulled and should, imo, be pulled by this responding hand because of the club fit. Opener, who denies spade support with the double, is assured of reasonable club length.

Opener can and will pass 4H with no fit in spades and no strong feeling that 4H will fail. He will also pass with 3 spades and a terrible hand, over 4H. Now, responder’s double, to me, merely suggests ownership of the hand. Opener is expected to do something intelligent. That will often be to pass, but opener is expected to bid on occasion.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#20 User is offline   KingCovert 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 258
  • Joined: 2019-May-25

Posted 2020-January-16, 19:55

 mikeh, on 2020-January-16, 17:57, said:

For most, 2S is merely F1, so 4H does not create a fp situation on either partner, double, by opener, is penalty. Of course, it can be pulled and should, imo, be pulled by this responding hand because of the club fit. Opener, who denies spade support with the double, is assured of reasonable club length.

Opener can and will pass 4H with no fit in spades and no strong feeling that 4H will fail. He will also pass with 3 spades and a terrible hand, over 4H. Now, responder’s double, to me, merely suggests ownership of the hand. Opener is expected to do something intelligent. That will often be to pass, but opener is expected to bid on occasion.


I guess, I'm just wondering if the long club support, hands are eliminated. Perhaps pass by Opener and double by Responder shows a hand sort of like this, maybe not void in hearts though. But, surely, it doesn't suggest Opener should ever correct to diamonds.... so.... Not much else to choose from.
0
  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users