BBO Discussion Forums: 2 [Di] Stayman - BBO Discussion Forums

This is my first topic dedicated at this "complementary" convention by Stayman to search fit in a minor suit using 2♦ answer to strong NT opener bidding. I has choosen a recent hand by JEC-sillafu to present it: 7121:25sillafuJECpetra33mina505♣N=60012.00Movie or LinTraveller

 Lovera, on 2015-May-23, 00:44, said:

North (Sillafu)..............East (Petra33)...............South (JEC)...................West (Mina50).....................
♠ N Q 8 6 E A 10 9 5 S 3 W K J 7 4 2
♥ N 9 6 2 E J 10 4 3 S A K W Q 8 7 5
♦ N A Q 6 E 8 5 S K 10 7 2 W J 9 4 3
♣ N A K 10 9 E Q 5 4 S J 8 7 6 3 2 W ---
N-S vul W-E not vul Bidding : W - N - E - S p, p - 1NT - p - 2♠(c=trsfxclub), X - 3 ♣ - p - 5♣

This post has been edited by Lovera: 2015-June-18, 13:38

If it apllies this convention, forcing manche, bidding is : 1NT(=15-17)-2♦ that query for sure stopper in major suit so :2♥/2♠ sure stopper in major suit indicated, 2NT in both majors there are stoppers, 3♣/3♦ without stopper. In our case bidding follows as at table ending in 5♣. 2♦ shows : 1) a singleton or a void; 2) a minor suit with almost five cards or two minor suits; 3) almost 11 points; 4) no interest for major suit.

This is another situation :"South open 1NT and North has ♠ 6 ♥ K 5 3 ♦ K Q 9 6 ♣ A J 8 6 3 and bids 2 ♦(=? stopper). South with stoppers in majors bids 2NT and North raise 3NT (S hand ♠ K Q 4 ♥ A J 10 ♦ A J 7 5 ♣ 7 4 2). But let's suppose to change spade and club so : ♠ 7 4 2 ♥ A J 10 ♦ A J 7 5 ♣ K Q 4. Now 3 NT are off whilest 6♦ are cold. In this case bidding cou"ld be : 1NT - 2♦, 2♥(=stopper only in heart)-3♣, 3♦-5♦, 6♦".(From "Do you play Stayman ?"- Odissey Press in New York)

I had already talked of this one in "Finding your minor suit slam !" on General Bridge Discussion (see there, before to continue reading, my post #29). Having i noticed that major suit answers are not used i have thought to insert it at 3th level when 2♦ is applied with ambigueous meaning. Infact lacking it is easier and frequent by opp to intervent. That the use of 2♦ forcing manche means that 2♠ transfert for minor is weak.

For another situation see my post #11 in "Slam play technique" on Intermediate and advanced bridge discussion, bye.

this hand of team "susy" on 2/6/15 the bidding, apply 2♦ convention, could be :1NT-2♦, 2♥-3♦, 4♦(=set trump starting Minorwood)-5♦(=2keys plus Queen and void), 6♦.
West (sillafu)................North (limly).................East (tsadek)...............South (des42)
♠ K85........................A4.................................QJ7..............................109632
♥ - ........................KJ1087.........................A632............................Q954
♦ KQ1072.................J54................................A986............................3
♣ A8652....................1074..............................KQ................................J93
All vul Bidding : W - N - E 1NT S p, 3H (0/1h)-X-4♦-p, 4♥-p-5♣-p, 5♦-p-6♦-all p

This post has been edited by Lovera: 2015-June-27, 06:46

It's not enough to demonstrate they effectiveness of a treatment like using 2 ♦ as minor stayman. You need to demonstrate that other methods aren't as effective and that its worth giving up Jacoby transfers.

I seriously doubt that is the case.

 Phil, on 2015-June-04, 11:44, said:

For instance i have presented two actual real cases on these two situations. Then, as i had already said, insert Jacoby transfert becoming 2♦ ambigueous so: if 2♦ bidder switch on heart (at level or jumping) or pass eventually 2♥ leaves minor suit search. Furthemore bidding 2♠ (instead 2♦) is weak transfert for club, bye.

us to see the other case when we apply 2♦ in this way and we are not interested in minor suit (how we can difference and clear):1NT-2♦ and partner informs, however, about sure stopper(s)=2NT because are in major suits but bidding heart(=3♥) limit and stop.(You can visualize cards and bidding of this board 6 in post #11 by Phil on answering to Lovera, thanks)
West (sillafu)...............North (des42).................East (tsadek).................South (limly)
♠ 643............................KQ10...............................AJ85..............................972
♥ 98743........................K10.................................AJ52..............................Q6
♦ A9..............................QJ10752.........................86..................................K43
♣ Q65............................43....................................AJ7...............................K10982
W-E vul N-S not vul Bidding :W - N - E 1NT S p, 2♦ p 3♥ p, 4♥ p p p

This post has been edited by Lovera: 2015-June-19, 10:46

 Lovera, on 2015-June-05, 09:47, said:

Comments?

East has a poor hand to super-accept on and West pressed on with a zillion losers. Its lucky its only -1.

Is this supposed to prove the fallibility of Jacoby Transfers or humans as a whole?

transfers have proved to be highly effective over a significant period of time. Eliminating the advantages to search for elusive minor suit games/slams might be worth while but a lot of evidence will need to be gathered first AND that alternative thinking is not better. For ex: I would use the following sequence for the hands you provided:
1n
2s relay to 3c
3c
3h hearts stopped and concern about spades, for nt purposes, with enough power to force to game.
3s partial spade stop Qxx does not count as a full stop especially when p is virtually guaranteed to be short
4c sets trumps (shows at least 6) and rkc for clubs
4d 0-3
4h club queen?
5c yes (due to known 10 card length) but nothing else to cue bid and generally minimum. The temptation to bid 6c if near max would be too great to overcome.
pass (I have sympathy for those that prefer to gamble 6c)

we can count a spade loser but there is no easy way to find out if we can get rid of 2 diamond losers so rather than guess we subside. That turns out to be lucky this particular hand when trumps break 03.

I am sure others have ways to bid these two hands w/o giving up on transfers:)

There was another hand at table plaied for 2♥+1 and bidding was 1NT-2♦(=trf), 2♥ having in heart not (sure) controll but AK in spade. In this case we'd have 2♠-3♥ or the same bidding if AK in heart instead spade.

S.Stayman, considering relative use of 2♦ in his convention, makes this one to search minor suit fit. Transfert use it'd not allow 2♦ answer query for minor but reserving major suits for 2♦ bidder instead should be it possible. I, infact, am going to try using contemporary both ones ruling consequently (2♦ ambigueous). At this aim, to avoid duplication of meanings, 2♠(=trf) is weak. En passant: if is used 2♣-2x, 3♣ as weak, to pass and play for club suit fit, 2♠ might be used, perhaps, as special transfert directly to diamond.