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North opens, can you find this one with your favourite methods?
Tough Slam to find
#1
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Posted 2014-December-21, 06:57
North opens, can you find this one with your favourite methods?
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
-- Bertrand Russell
-- Bertrand Russell
#2
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Posted 2014-December-21, 07:17
many ways to get there perhaps:
1s=2c
5h=5s
7c or 7s at MP??
1s=2c
5h=5s
7c or 7s at MP??
#3
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Posted 2014-December-21, 10:23
1S-2C
3C-3H
3S-4C
4D-4S
5nt-7C
3C-3H
3S-4C
4D-4S
5nt-7C
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#4
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#5
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Posted 2014-December-21, 14:16
I mean, even if you actually play 2♣ as 4+ clubs (do you really?), the only reason you're giving up on spades right away is because you saw both hands, right?
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
-- Bertrand Russell
-- Bertrand Russell
#6
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Posted 2014-December-21, 15:00
If you want relay..
1♠-1NT
2NT-3♣
3♦-3♥
4♠
To this point north has shown 7024, south hopes that he has at least ♦K and bids blacky with the luck of finding 2 keycards (♠K is one), then asks for ♣Q and blasts 7♣. Or maybe asks for ♠Q along the way and plays 7♠ if MPs.
1♠-1NT
2NT-3♣
3♦-3♥
4♠
To this point north has shown 7024, south hopes that he has at least ♦K and bids blacky with the luck of finding 2 keycards (♠K is one), then asks for ♣Q and blasts 7♣. Or maybe asks for ♠Q along the way and plays 7♠ if MPs.
#7
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Posted 2014-December-21, 16:11
I mean, even if you actually play 2♣ as 4+ clubs (do you really?), the only reason you're giving up on spades right away is because you saw both hands, right?
fair question and yes 4+ (2d is also 4+ but 5+ very often) I give up on spades to simplify the auction but rebidding spades and trying to back into clubs is an option. many paths
fair question and yes 4+ (2d is also 4+ but 5+ very often) I give up on spades to simplify the auction but rebidding spades and trying to back into clubs is an option. many paths
#8
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Posted 2014-December-21, 17:21
I suspect I'd bid
1♠-2♣
2♠-3♥
3♠-4♠
pass
1♠-2♣
2♠-3♥
3♠-4♠
pass
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2014-December-21, 17:41
gnasher, on 2014-December-21, 17:21, said:
I suspect I'd bid
1♠-2♣
2♠-3♥
3♠-4♠
pass
1♠-2♣
2♠-3♥
3♠-4♠
pass
Result merchant.
#10
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Posted 2014-December-21, 21:42
PhilKing, on 2014-December-21, 17:41, said:
Result merchant.
This hand has probably convinced me to change my approach. I include clubs, balanced or a 3 card limit raise in 2C, and then 2D is a waiting relay or you can break the relay with extra shape. I was thinking I'd break the relay and bid 2S to shoow the extra shape, but that prevents a sane auction here and if partner rebids 2N or 2S I can still just rebid spades (so I'm not behind). If I content myself with 2D waiting partner shows 4 hearts and 5 clubs with 2H, I can bid a fit showing 3C and then get to slam (well, not sure even at that point rebidding 3C instead of 2S is clear cut either, and even if I do not sure we can get to slam but I'm better off than I am in the other sequence!).
But I wouldn't have at the table, because I'd bid 2S and then you play 4.
Cool hand.
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Posted 2014-December-24, 12:38
gnasher, on 2014-December-21, 17:21, said:
I suspect I'd bid
1♠-2♣
2♠-3♥
3♠-4♠
pass
1♠-2♣
2♠-3♥
3♠-4♠
pass
This auction is truly horrible. Bidding 3H instead of 2N, well I have no words for that, you use up all the room and just have to guess entirely from there. But even if you do that surely 3H promises real clubs, I cannot imagine north rebidding spades and passing! He has QJTx of clubs on an auction where partner must typically be 4-6 at least (even if you bid it with 1435 somehow, you presumably have nothing in diamonds so that is quite good for clubs). In my world 3H should promise 5-6 but that's how much I think it's wrong to be bidding 3H very often, with 4-6 bid 2N or 3C and with 4-5 never bid 3H please.
1S 2C
2S 2N
3C 3H
seems like a more normal start to the auction from there then who knows what would happen.
The artist formerly known as jlall
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Posted 2014-December-24, 13:09
PhantomSac, on 2014-December-24, 12:38, said:
This auction is truly horrible. Bidding 3H instead of 2N, well I have no words for that, you use up all the room and just have to guess entirely from there.
I suspect that gnasher is concerned about wrongsiding. Bidding 3♥ instead of 2NT would be the winning move if Opener had something like Kxxxxx AQx Kx Qx. Maybe this is too low a target, when 3♥ takes up so much room. Swap the suits round to give Responder A xxx AKxxx KJxx. After 1♠-2♦-2♠. Do you still think 2NT is obvious, or would you consider 3♣ as a plausible call now?
#13
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Posted 2014-December-24, 15:28
jallerton, on 2014-December-24, 13:09, said:
Swap the suits round to give Responder A xxx AKxxx KJxx. After 1♠-2♦-2♠. Do you still think 2NT is obvious, or would you consider 3♣ as a plausible call now?
I would consider 3C totally normal with that hand. I know it's "only" 2 steps but they are really important when we are dealing with such limited room, over 3C partner can preference to 3D, rebid 3S, bid 3N with nothing special and hearts stopped, or punt with 3H if nothing else is appealing. That is a lot different than 1S 2C 2S 3H where partner can bid spades a third time, bid 3N, or go past 3N to 4C. That being said even if we accept 3H as a reasonable bid (I cannot be convinced of that but w/e), how can not supporting clubs be right?
The artist formerly known as jlall
#14
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Posted 2014-December-24, 15:59
My view on this hand is you can always find a decent way to show the KQ10xxxx in spades but now is the only time to show good and genuine club support - ergo, to my thinking, supporting clubs now is best. The most likely continuations do no prevent me from insisting on spades if that seems best.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#15
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Posted 2014-December-24, 16:57
PhantomSac, on 2014-December-24, 12:38, said:
This auction is truly horrible. Bidding 3H instead of 2N, well I have no words for that, you use up all the room and just have to guess entirely from there.
Do you have any way of finding a 5-3 ♣ fit over 2N? Is P supposed to bid 3♣ with 3 of them? I've been thinking about adopting the 2C as 'clubs or balanced' style, but not sure what the implications for auctions like this are. Assuming you're playing that way, would opener's 3♣ rebid (over 2♣) promise 5 of the suit?
It seems like (short of having a highly artificial relay system) you're always going to struggle to find at least one type of 8-card fit in the suit?
The "4♥ is a transfer to 4♠" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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Posted 2014-December-24, 17:40
Jinksy, on 2014-December-24, 16:57, said:
Do you have any way of finding a 5-3 ♣ fit over 2N? Is P supposed to bid 3♣ with 3 of them? I've been thinking about adopting the 2C as 'clubs or balanced' style, but not sure what the implications for auctions like this are. Assuming you're playing that way, would opener's 3♣ rebid (over 2♣) promise 5 of the suit?
It seems like (short of having a highly artificial relay system) you're always going to struggle to find at least one type of 8-card fit in the suit?
It seems like (short of having a highly artificial relay system) you're always going to struggle to find at least one type of 8-card fit in the suit?
Hands with 4-card support normally show the club support immediately (the hand in this thread is unusual because the 7-card suit is (arguably) an even more important feature to be able to show). If partner doesn't actually have clubs for his 2♣ bid he can revert to spades or NT. 1♠-2♣-2♠-2NT-3♣ is normally 3-card support (I've seen it done with ♣Hx also).
#17
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Posted 2014-December-24, 17:56
PhantomSac, on 2014-December-24, 15:28, said:
I would consider 3C totally normal with that hand. I know it's "only" 2 steps but they are really important when we are dealing with such limited room, over 3C partner can preference to 3D, rebid 3S, bid 3N with nothing special and hearts stopped, or punt with 3H if nothing else is appealing. That is a lot different than 1S 2C 2S 3H where partner can bid spades a third time, bid 3N, or go past 3N to 4C. That being said even if we accept 3H as a reasonable bid (I cannot be convinced of that but w/e), how can not supporting clubs be right?
Yes, the two extra steps are really important. You know what's coming next: A xxx KJxx AKxxx. 1♠-2♣-2♠-?
I don't understand gnasher's suggested bidding for Opener either. It's a question of how and when, not whether, Opener shows the club support. Consider that 7♣ could be the only making grand opposite ♠Ax ♣AKxx and no red suit trick.
#18
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Posted 2014-December-25, 03:58
After
1♠ - 2♣
4♥ - 4♠
Which is pretty much forced by my system (4♥ is the only way to show north's hand since 3♠ sets the suit and 4♠ is a cue), I can find 6 but not 7.
1♠ - 2♣
4♥ - 4♠
Which is pretty much forced by my system (4♥ is the only way to show north's hand since 3♠ sets the suit and 4♠ is a cue), I can find 6 but not 7.
Become yourself.
#19
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Posted 2014-December-25, 06:46
jallerton, on 2014-December-24, 17:56, said:
I don't understand gnasher's suggested bidding for Opener either.
I wasn't suggesting this bidding, in the sense of recommending it. I was, not totally seriously, describing the sort of auction that I sometimes have.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2014-December-25, 09:27
jallerton, on 2014-December-24, 17:56, said:
Yes, the two extra steps are really important. You know what's coming next: A xxx KJxx AKxxx. 1♠-2♣-2♠-?
Haha I would bid 2N happily with this. I would even unhappily bid 2N with Ax xx KJxx AKxxx even though I think in a vacuum that is wrong I think it is important for reversing (sorry if that is a stupid use of the word but you know what I mean) to show 6 of the minor. Hands like that are a good advertisement for rebidding your major to show 6 over 2C (but that leaves you with bidding 2N on some very anti-positional 5332s), or to just relay over 2C, but of course that is a different story. It's been happening for a while but I think pretty soon relaying over 2C will be the norm, it is already quite popular obviously and I have been resistant to the change.
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On a very good day, perhaps ...
Over 4♥, 4S (cheapest step) shows no interest.