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A fine line

#1 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 17:03

64 KQ6 AK87 KQ102

1NT-3♥
3NT-4NT

1NT = (14)15-17. Includes some 14s and all 4432 17s.
3♥ = Spades, various hands. One of the options is a one-suited game-invitation.
3NT = Would accept the one-suited invitation, only two spades
4NT = Invitational to slam, 5(332). Asks "Are you good in context?"

So, are you?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#2 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 17:29

View Postgnasher, on 2012-June-17, 17:03, said:

Asks "Are you good in context?"

So, are you?

Yes.
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 17:44

View Postgnasher, on 2012-June-17, 17:03, said:

64 KQ6 AK87 KQ102
1NT-3♥
3NT-4NT
1NT = (14)15-17. Includes some 14s and all 4432 17s.
3♥ = Spades, various hands. One of the options is a one-suited game-invitation.
3NT = Would accept the one-suited invitation, only two spades
4NT = Invitational to slam, 5(332). Asks "Are you good in context?"
So, are you?
You are a king better than you could be for 1N but your ♠ are miserable and, subsequently, you have have shown a hand worth acceptance of a game invitation
IMO you should try 5♠ (= how good are your ♠), as a blame re-transfer :)
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#4 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 17:47

No, you are not a king better than you might be. You already showed a hand that would accept an invite, and partner invited opposite that.
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#5 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 17:49

I would pass fwiw, it looks like partner has a 15 count and I have no fitting spade honor and no 5 card suit. 32 with no fit and not good fitting honors doesn't feel like a great slam. If partner had 4 spade honors he might have bid slam himself, he would know the value of the ten.
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 18:28

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-June-17, 17:49, said:

I would pass fwiw, it looks like partner has a 15 count and I have no fitting spade honor and no 5 card suit. 32 with no fit and not good fitting honors doesn't feel like a great slam. If partner had 4 spade honors he might have bid slam himself, he would know the value of the ten.

I think partner could have an indifferent looking 16, say AKxxx, Jxx, QJx, AJ which doesn't look that tasty, but is in fact gold dust. You have 17 with an AK, 2 KQs and a 10, other than a high card in spades, you couldn't be much better.

If I played this system, I'd have methods here, and would have 5♠/5N as invites with/without a spade honour whichever way I chose to use them, but I'd probably just bid the slam.
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#7 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 19:13

Yes I think I would accept. No spade honours is a downside but I think my two (good) four card suits are just enough to compensate that especially with the club ten playing a huge role. Am I to assume partner has a 16 count (or pretty good 15) given that we would "accept game" with most 16's opposite an assumed 6S 7+-8 count? Well, here's to hoping partner has enough quacks for some juicy fillers! What are my methods over 4NT here? Maybe I should just bid 5NT to repass the buck to partner - but how is partner meant to know which quacks are good? HAJx DJ CAJx would be an awful combination but HA DQJ CJ would be a great one. On the other hand, I certainly don't want to be in slam in the (unlikely) event that we're off 2 aces if partner has the dreaded AKQJx J10x QJx J9 or something like that.
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-June-17, 20:19

View Postgnasher, on 2012-June-17, 17:03, said:

4NT = Invitational to slam, 5(332). Asks "Are you good in context?"

Practicing what I preach, I first had to accept gnasher's conditions. The conditions are that even though we have shown a maximum, their agreement is 4NT asks again. "In context" of already having shown a maximum with two Spades would, IMO, be specifically a fitting honor in spades or a side 5-bagger for a different source of tricks. I don't have either of those.

But, that is just a guess about what 4NT really wants. We don't have any re-quants that I can think of; this 4NT seemed like Spadewood until Andy told us otherwise.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-June-18, 07:14

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-June-17, 20:19, said:

Practicing what I preach, I first had to accept gnasher's conditions. The conditions are that even though we have shown a maximum, their agreement is 4NT asks again. "In context" of already having shown a maximum with two Spades would, IMO, be specifically a fitting honor in spades or a side 5-bagger for a different source of tricks. I don't have either of those.

But, that is just a guess about what 4NT really wants. We don't have any re-quants that I can think of; this 4NT seemed like Spadewood until Andy told us otherwise.

I wouldn't fear playing in 5N on this auction, so I think you can use the space effectively. Whether it's worth investing a lot of time in this area of system is not clear, but using some artificiality over 4N would cover a lot of options eg:

5♣ = 5♣ no spade honour or 5♥ no spade honour or no 5 card suit no spade honour, 5♦ asks which 5♠/♥/N for the 3 options
5♦ = 5♦ no spade honour or no 5 card suit with one, 5♥ asks, 5♠/5N for the 2 options
5♥ = 5♥ and a spade honour
5♠ = 5♣ and a spade honour
5N = 5♦ and a spade honour
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#10 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-June-18, 08:31

I would pass. No spade honour and only one ace and I've already accepted a game invitation.
Even assuming I'd open most good 17s with a 5-card suit something else, I could still have K10 A10x AK109 K109x, couldn't I? (Well, OK, probably not in spite of saying you'd open all 4432 17s 1NT, but you take the point)
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#11 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2012-June-18, 09:50

Should 5NT be a re-invite or pick a slam?
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 01:25

Responder's hand was AKJxx A109 Q10x Jx, so slam was very good.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 01:43

That is a pretty compelling example hand. Anyone wanna simulate partner having a 5(332) 15 and not 4 of the top 5 spades opposite our hand and see how often slam makes just for fun? Maybe I underestimated our CT, it rates to be a huge card opposite any club holding basically except for AJ with partner.
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#14 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 01:46

View Postkgr, on 2012-June-18, 09:50, said:

Should 5NT be a re-invite or pick a slam?

What do you think? You already told your partner you had a maximum with 2 spades and he is inviting you. Do you think it's worthwhile to split your range in two again (in total, you would split 3 hcps in 8 by now)?
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#15 User is offline   yin970902 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 02:53

I would bid 6NT ,as "4NT = Invitational to slam, 5(332). Asks "Are you good in context?"".
partner has a strong suit ♠ .wow!
6nt contract just need he has a other Ace.
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 04:18

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-June-19, 01:43, said:

That is a pretty compelling example hand. Anyone wanna simulate partner having a 5(332) 15 and not 4 of the top 5 spades opposite our hand and see how often slam makes just for fun? Maybe I underestimated our CT, it rates to be a huge card opposite any club holding basically except for AJ with partner.

It's interesting that you could take away all of partner's spot cards and slam would still be about 65%, but take away ♣J and it's awful.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#17 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 04:42

True, give partner QJT of diamonds or AJT of hearts instead of the club jack and it changes the hand a lot. Maybe I did not misjudge as badly as I thought, but it does seem like the CT will be significant a reasonable amount of the time which I did not grasp very well when I first replied.
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#18 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 04:58

View Postgwnn, on 2012-June-19, 01:46, said:

What do you think? You already told your partner you had a maximum with 2 spades and he is inviting you. Do you think it's worthwhile to split your range in two again (in total, you would split 3 hcps in 8 by now)?

I had the impression that other replies seemed to imply reinvite and was surprised by that
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#19 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 06:30

With such premium honor quality and a very good ten, I would still accept.

If I am only allowed to bid on with a spade honor then the description of 4NT should state that.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
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#20 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-June-19, 06:43

View Postkgr, on 2012-June-19, 04:58, said:

I had the impression that other replies seemed to imply reinvite and was surprised by that

You're right, sorry. I am also surprised.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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